TexasCHLforum.com

apostate wrote:

point blank CHL wrote:......I think a min. of 8 hours plus range would be good...

Eight hours classroom plus two hours on the range?

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

PracticalTactical wrote:I don't think anybody here is considering the possibility of vicarious liability in the number of class hours. Personally, I wouldn't go below about 8 hours. I just don't think I could get students to understand it all in less time.

We're already at 4 hrs for renewals and these folks make up the vast majority of CHL students every year. We haven't had a problem with renewals students.

PracticalTactical wrote:If the required in-person class time were lowered to 4 hours, I would have an online pre-course with a test they have to pass before coming to the classroom.

While you can establish any personal requirements you feel prudent to attend your class, be careful that you don't add to the statutory requirements to pass the DPS course and obtain a CHL-100. As instructors, we cannot add additional requirements to pass the course.

PracticalTactical wrote:But 4 hours of total classroom without anything else to back it....no way. Most students would be OK with 4 hours because they're pretty with it, but I'm not putting my name on any of my student's bullets without some good training to get me off the hook.

You wouldn't be on the hook at all. We instructors have immunity. Plus, you already do it with renewal students and studies show those students recall very little of any from their course 5 years earlier. Also, when you teach students on their 4th renewals, they will not have had a class in 10 years.

I would like to see the Code amended such that the only subjects taught are 1) use of force; 2) regulatory matters for CHL's (renewals, change of address, etc.) and 3) a short basic firearms safety.
Chas.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

creitsma wrote:

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

point blank CHL wrote:.You have to know your stuff when dealing with me...."casltle doctrine" is street slang here and it was taken from Florida because they where the first to pass a law like this and they call it the "castle doctrine"

Wrong again! The term "Castle Doctrine" is a legal term that has nothing to do with Florida.

Chas.

The term may not have come from Florida...but Florida was the first state in the united states to put a "casltle doctrine" law on there books..Texas and other States just followed them...The term "castle doctrine" is in the wording of Floridas law but the term "castle doctrine" is not once listed in the penal code....Thats what i was tring to say.....

The Castle Doctrine is a term from English law that was adopted is as common law most if not all states when the U.S. was formed. Some states statutorily repealed that common law doctrine. Florida was by no means the first state to adopt the so-called Castle Doctrine.

From the days of the Republic of Texas until Sept. 1, 1977, Texas was a Castle Doctrine State. In fact, we were a "true man" state during that time. From Sept. 1, 1977 until Sept. 1, 1995, Texas had a retreat duty everywhere in the State, including in your home. However, the courts watered down that duty significantly. In 1995, the retreat duty in your home was repealed and Texas once again became a Castle Doctrine State. In 2007 with the passage of SB378, our version of the so-called "Castle Doctrine," we reverted back to a "true man" state except for the provisions against provocation and criminal activity.

SB378 was not modeled after Florida's statute. We took the basic NRA bill from our nationwide campaign, then added much more, including the all-important presumption provisions. Your prior post was not limited to the use of the term Castle Doctrine in statute. You said that no one used that term, not even the promoters of SB378 and that's incorrect. You even said they used the term "stand your ground law" and, while that phrase was used by some in addition to Castle Doctrine, that phrase doesn't appear in the Penal Code either.

You and I are in agreement on the length of the CHL course, but your "holier than thou" attitude toward others, including other CHL instructors" doesn't set well. Just because others may not agree with us doesn't justify ridiculing their opinions.

Chas.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

point blank CHL wrote:.You have to know your stuff when dealing with me...."casltle doctrine" is street slang here and it was taken from Florida because they where the first to pass a law like this and they call it the "castle doctrine"

Wrong again! The term "Castle Doctrine" is a legal term that has nothing to do with Florida.

Chas.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

point blank CHL wrote:...10 hours is to long and most other States have shorter classes and some States stopped using there own instructors and started using NRA instructors...

What states use NRA Instructors to teach a state class? Do you know of any states that abandoned their own state classes in favor of NRA classes? Some states accept NRA classes, like the NRA Basic Pistol Class, but that's an 8 hour class. Alice Tripp and I have been talking about lowering the new and renewal CHL class to 4 hours exclusive of the range time.

C-dub wrote:Hey there Point.

As long as you're teaching it, whatever it's called. It doesn't seem like some instructors are. And even though "printing" is in the code I would also hope that you are explaining it is and that it isn't illegal.

apostate wrote:I wonder if his students are the ones coming here with those questions because he won't answer them.

BrianSW99 wrote:

point blank CHL wrote:

tbrown wrote:I have heard of and met a lot of new CHLers who

• don't know where is off limits
• don't understand the 30.06 law
• don't know churches are no longer off limits unless there's 30.06 notice
• don't know the Chapter 9 rules for deadly force
• don't even know the Chapter 9 rules for force
• don't know there's a difference between MPA and the castle doctrine
• are confused about "printing"
• are confused about CHL and alcohol or prescription drugs
• aren't familiar with their carry gun
• know little or nothing about nonviolent dispute resolution

Should I go on? It looks like 10 hours is not enough for a lot of instructors to teach the required classroom topics in a useful way.

Oh yea...You said somthing about printing and the castle doctrine...The term "printing" and "castle doctorine" are not in the Texas penal code....We dont have castle doctrine in Texas...Yes we have a law that is the same as the "castle doctrine" but Texas does not call it the "castle doctrine" so dont use a term in your class that your students wont find in the penal code..Yes i know the test says "castle doctrine" but that just shows the person who made up the test has no clue...."printing" is street slang and i dont use street slang in my class...The penal code gives a definition of "concealed" but does not mention the term "printing" one time....If you knew the penal code you would know all this...No problem...I dont mind teaching other instructors........Just food for thought....

A lot of laws are given a name when they're introduced in the legislature. You won't generally find those names in the actual law. Motorist Protection Act, Texas Castle Law, Ashley's Law are a few that I can think of. I don't think there's anything wrong with talking about a law by the name it is/was commonly known as, as long as you're teaching the law correctly. A lot of people particularly confuse the Motorist Protection Act with the Castle Law.

Similarly, the term "printing" may not be in the penal code, but that's the common term for your gun showing. There's nothing wrong with talking about printing when talking about "failure to conceal".

Brian

tbrown wrote:I have heard of and met a lot of new CHLers who

• don't know where is off limits
• don't understand the 30.06 law
• don't know churches are no longer off limits unless there's 30.06 notice
• don't know the Chapter 9 rules for deadly force
• don't even know the Chapter 9 rules for force
• don't know there's a difference between MPA and the castle doctrine
• are confused about "printing"
• are confused about CHL and alcohol or prescription drugs
• aren't familiar with their carry gun
• know little or nothing about nonviolent dispute resolution

Should I go on? It looks like 10 hours is not enough for a lot of instructors to teach the required classroom topics in a useful way.

C-dub wrote:

tbrown wrote:I have heard of and met a lot of new CHLers who

• don't know where is off limits
• don't understand the 30.06 law
• don't know churches are no longer off limits unless there's 30.06 notice
• don't know the Chapter 9 rules for deadly force
• don't even know the Chapter 9 rules for force
• don't know there's a difference between MPA and the castle doctrine
• are confused about "printing"
• are confused about CHL and alcohol or prescription drugs
• aren't familiar with their carry gun
• know little or nothing about nonviolent dispute resolution

Should I go on? It looks like 10 hours is not enough for a lot of instructors to teach the required classroom topics in a useful way.

The few I've come in contact with at work either paid no attention at all in class or got ripped off. I think 10 hours is plenty, but some instructors don't seem to be making effective use of that time.