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Lucky45

stevie_d_64 wrote:
Mike from Texas wrote:Wow. Funny how the tables turn when actual facts are printed instead of liberal media propaganda. Lots of folks here were ready to string this guy up based on what the read from the very source that we normally discount as liberal garbage.

Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions until the FACTS are presented.

I'm just sayin'........
I think this annoyed one participant here (a while back), and they thought my bringing it up (at that time) was ignorant or something...Good thing I don't really mind being classified as ignorant...But what the heck...

"News is just that, news...Not evidence in a court of law..."

You are absolutely correct about not jumping to conclusions these days...

Here is what I said, and tell me where I implied you were ignorant. Plus everything I said then is still relevant and I haven't changed my opinion on this particular reply you are talking about. I thought we don't people bash on this forum, so I know I would never stoop to that level. I stay on the issue and not get my feelings hurt.

Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 2:49 pm Post subject:

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stevie_d_64 wrote:
News is news, not evidence...

I know that stevie. I would hope that everyone look at these discussions as a chance to get set in your mind on how you would personally react if faced with the same situation.
I don't know the people and will not be on jury, so don't care. Just using real cases as they come as discussing them with what you know. Because that is how it will be whenever you are faced with a situation involving a weapon. It will most likely be dynamic and changing all the time.
So what if we don't have all the information, then most of us have learned by now that there are lots of grey areas and everyday you should be looking to find them when it comes to using your handgun.

So just like brainstorming, we can hash out all the different ways this event could have taken place if a CHL holder was on board the bus (or wherever a future incident takes place) and we don't have to have all the facts.

This isn't a COURT, this is a discussion. As the fact become available, we will ALL fill it in. So everyone get off the "this is just a news report" horse. We know that.

Lucky45

stevie_d_64 wrote: No amount of speculation, based upon the news we have so far on this gives us the opportunity to actually grade the young CHL'ers behavior in the incident...I really wish we did have some idea of how and what he may have said inside that bus...

But you nailed it on how perceptions mean everything in the court of public opinion.....

That is why in my opinion, ONLY until I hear or see a statement from the shooter saying that he made an attempt to descalate the situation by apologizing for bumping in the guy. Then I don't agree that he tried to descalate the confrontation and therefore was justified in using force. The decedant could have looked like frankenstein and had steam coming from his behind, but if the shooter learned to descalate by first pulling a knife when the guy said from the beginning that he just wanted an apology, then that is just plain sorry. Those were the shooter's statements made to police.

Lucky45

stevie_d_64 wrote:
One thing that gets me about the whole thing is, if anyone has ever ridden in a Houston Metro city bus, especially like the one they were in...

There is ample opportunity to step on or brush up against someone in those things...I know...I have been stepped on and push around on them many times when I worked downtown...Its a way of life...

And most reasonable people excuse themselves, apologize and everyone understands that and goes on with their day...

Very true. I have travelled on MASS TRANSIT for more almost half my life and in MANY COUNTRIES and this is very normal. Nobody tries to act all bravado to the point where you can't apologize. It is "normally" expected of you to apologize, because everyone knows it was unintentional. And generally, confrontation do arise immediately with those trying to ignore the unwritten rule. So daily, unarmed people descalate these situations without a law over their head. And we are suppose to be held to a higher standard than the general public.

I know some might be saying that is just third world countries etc, by gosh this is USA, etc, etc. You have internet, go search and see this problem hardly arises in different places.
Nobody gets killed like this in INDIA where thousands ride on TOP of a train because the cabin area is crowded.
JAPAN has people employed whose job is to push, shove and cram passengers into train before departure.

Lucky45

frankie_the_yankee wrote:
Also, Mallot must have tried to apologize or do other things that a reasonable person woiuld do to try to de-escalate the situation, which the BG unfortunately ignored.

I wish people would stop assuming this idea in this discussion, because NOWHERE since this incidents has it been stated that the shooter tried to apologize in HIS STATEMENTS. He had NO PROBLEM saying to the POLICE and the GRAND JURY that he pulled a knife, then pulled a gun to solve his dilemma with the decedent. When the FIRST THING out of a REASONABLE PERSON's mouth would have been, "I tried to say sorry, but the decedent didn't give me a chance to or wasn't hearing it.

So don't make excuses for him, let's go on what we know so far.

Lucky45

seamusTX wrote: As for civil suits by the decedant's survivors, I somehow doubt a guy who rides the bus has a lot of assets, especially after paying the defense attorney.

- Jim

I see your point, but I don't think a monetary judgment in a civil suit case would help him out in his financial future.

Lucky45

frankie_the_yankee wrote: I wasn't there. The news reports that I've seen have been very strange and in some respects contradictory.

If a guy is verbally threatening me, I am going to make some attempt to gain some distance - i.e. to get away. Even in the confines of a bus, I would back off and hope that the other guy would be satisfied that he "ran me off."

For all we know, maybe the shooter in this case did something like that. It might be a reason why he was no billed. But we just don't know. The reporting in this case has been woefully incompetent.

I would never consider drawing a knife. If the other guy is much bigger than me, I'd be worried that he could take it away and use it against me. Even if he isn't, I have no skill at knife fighting whatsoever, and would probably end up on the wrong end of it.

In some circumstances, depending on the other guy's behavior, disparity of force if any, etc., I might get to a point where I was in reasonable fear of an imminent threat of serious injury or death, and resort to a gun.

But it depends on a whole lot of things that we have not been informed about in this case.

I agree with most of your points. But also want to add about some people making comments about the reporting not getting it right.

First, as has been suggested earlier, there is nobody walking around with a neon sign listing their criminal history. So therefore, any encounter where your handgun might be involved, should be thought out clearly and you should be ready to accept the consequences. For some to suggest the decedent was a bully and the shooter acted correct, you are basically condoning a serious problem for someone else in the future. Because the next similar shooting where the decedent does not have a questionable character, then will we have the same outcome?? The only difference would be knowledge of a person's character AFTER THE FACT/ SHOOTING. And if that is what some are using to base their decision on using a handgun, then to me, you are just STEREOTYPING.

I'm suprised that I haven't seen the usual crowd from the bleachers come with the song and dance about the civil liability. So I will ask, what about the civil case???

So it has cost the shooter a guestimate amount of around $20,000, SO FAR???

Also, I'm going to do some backtracking research and find out the shooters screen name, because I got a feeling from his MO, that he was on this site. Looking to see who has been missing since March. In ....uh.hmm....IRAQ!!!! yeah right. Maybe in SHAQ...SHACKLES!!!

In all, still a good case to discuss, because now you hear what happened and would you do the same and expect the same results?

Lucky45

Paladin wrote: Yep. Thinking about this a little, I would have to guess Mr. Francis(the guy who got shot) was not in a clear mental state. Repeatedly threatening to beat somebody who's got a knife on you is not a sign of clear thinking. I'd be very curious to hear what the toxicology report comes back with.

You know it is amazing that alot of people in here would immediately cast the victim into one category saying he had to be crazy to want beat the shooter after words were exchanged after the bump. He must be high, on drugs, crazy, etc. out of all the things in the world. But could never be one word that was said that MIGHT be followed by a beatdown.

So the victim is high and crazy but the shooter is totally SANE for first pulling a KNIFE, then pulling a GUN. Obviously he was trying to scare the victim. And I thought it was preached that you don't pull a deadly weapon to scare someone. You pull it if in IMMINENT danger and are going to use it.

PC Â§9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b),
a person is justified in using force against another when and to the
degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to
protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful
force.
(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
(1) in response to verbal provocation alone;

The shooter step out of bounds because he first attempted to use deadly force when the law allows you to use only force. Then if the victim was threatening him verbally alone, then the laws says he is not justified to use any force.
Then the use of deadly force is not justified against any assault except sexual assault. Or to to protect yourself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force.

What ever happened to oldfashioned "TAKE IT LIKE A MAN FOR WHAT YOU SAID" WHOOPINGs? Some folks always quick with the draw nowadays.

Lucky45

Mike1951 wrote:
I've re-read several accounts and the only knife mentioned is the one the shooter pulled.
It appears the licensee pulled a knife after being verbally threatened. When the victim wasn't sufficiently impressed with the knife and repeated the threat, the licensee pulled his .357 and shot.

That's a big 10-4. That is what was read in court appearance of the suspect.

Lucky45

Hey Paladin,
that knife and gun carry sounds like the M.O. of some people around this forum, but that is my opinion.
Isn't amazing how we only find after he appeared in court that he did pull a knife, then a gun and the victim was unarmed. Talk about dynamics. Look how the pendulum swings.

Seems as though the reporting has been biased so far.

Anyway, the report doesn't sound bias to me because today I would think they would be writing from what was said or transcript in COURT. Only facts are supposed to be submitted, I guess from sworn statements of all parties involved.

The victim, who was shot once in the chest, was an older African-American man.

Not that it's especially important who brushed up against who, but that point is unclear. The latest says that the shooter was repeatedly threatened, and the guy who got shot was not an old guy, but 31 years old.

I think 31 is older than 24.

I'm curious to hear what other facts haven't come out yet.

Yep, let's wait and see.

Lucky45

March 28, 2007, 11:22PM
Man shot to death on Metro bus

By ROBERT CROWE and MIKE GLENN
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

At least 11 slayings have occurred in Houston since Saturday, and the latest came Wednesday when a Metro bus passenger shot another passenger who had bumped into him, police said.

The victim and suspect apparently got into an argument while the suspect was trying to get off the bus in the 11700 block of Westheimer, Houston police said.

The suspect, who had a license to carry a concealed handgun, shot the other man in front of about 30 passengers at about 11:30 a.m., police said.

"Murder charges are pending, but we will present it to the district attorney, and it's likely that charges will be accepted," said Capt. Dale Brown of the Houston Police Department Homicide Division. "It's also possible it will be referred to a grand jury."

Things that make you go HMMMMMMMM.

Lucky45

stevie_d_64 wrote:News is news, not evidence...

I know that stevie. I would hope that everyone look at these discussions as a chance to get set in your mind on how you would personally react if faced with the same situation.
I don't know the people and will not be on jury, so don't care. Just using real cases as they come as discussing them with what you know. Because that is how it will be whenever you are faced with a situation involving a weapon. It will most likely be dynamic and changing all the time.
So what if we don't have all the information, then most of us have learned by now that there are lots of grey areas and everyday you should be looking to find them when it comes to using your handgun.

So just like brainstorming, we can hash out all the different ways this event could have taken place if a CHL holder was on board the bus (or wherever a future incident takes place) and we don't have to have all the facts.

This isn't a COURT, this is a discussion. As the fact become available, we will ALL fill it in. So everyone get off the "this is just a news report" horse. We know that.

Lucky45

Big Calhoun wrote:Seeing how he walked to the back and took a seat, I would have felt comfortable just keeping on eye on him so I could point him out to the police.

That is fine. But if this guy thought it was fit to shoot someone after they brushed up against each other. I wonder what would his demeanor when you start reckless eyeballing him. Would you guys then exchange words also?

PC Â§9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b),
a person is justified in using force against another when and to the
degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to
protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful
force.

Would this apply since he already used deadly force and you have no idea of his intentions or mental state while your ears are ringing from the gun shot in an enclosed bus.
I know some people in here try to act as though they could sit there like nothing happened and a dead body is a few feet from them. But the human body is wired for SELF preservation. A gun shot going off in close proximity will make the adrenalin flow. If you don't have adrenalin, it might be because you replaced it with Ridillin.

PC Â§9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person
is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under
Section 9.31;

Think we got that.
(2) if a reasonable person in the actor's situation would not have
retreated; and

I think they is no safe way to exit a moving bus which is crowded. Either kick down Granny to get to the door, or jump through the window into oncoming traffic.

(3) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly
force is immediately necessary:
Don't know if I'm next so bet your dollar it is immediately necessary.

(A) to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use
of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated
kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault,
robbery, or aggravated robbery.

Think the guy already demonstrated that he will use deadly force. Do you asked him if he is finished shooting so you can sit in peace?

The only grey area would be the draw because you would have to seen and heard the entire confrontation. Because if the suspect shot the victim just on verbal provocation then I would be very concerned about being in his zone. Who knows if he included "TALL PEOPLE" in argument with the victim?
Now if the victim pulled a weapon and they both drew on each other, then that would be a different story.

Lucky45

I don't know why I post in this site because I can never take a real life incident (NOT FICTION) and try to have a discussion and analyze it from a CHL holder's perspective.

Thanks for the comments Jim, KD and everyone else.

txinvestigator wrote:
Where do some of ya'll get that "fear of your life" stuff?

I guess you chose number 2. Sitting in a bus with gun shots going off would not even be fazed or look around. Just looking for your stop.

Geister wrote: I think the #1 priority in self-defense is NOT carrying a firearm but keeping yourself away from locations in which you might have to use it.

That is assuming that the need for self defense would not occur in the other regular locations that you go on a daily basis.
For those that don't use personal transportation for whatever reason, catching the bus is a regular activity. Some people get bus passes from work to ride MEtro, reimbursed, Park and Ride, etc. Riding Metro doesn't mean it is your main mode of transportation.

Some might say that this is a freak incident and they don't catch the bus ever. But look at last month, the Houston Rodeo was going on here. How many people rode the Metro to the stadium? It could have occured then also.
For those in other cities benefit, whenever they is a large event in Houston, most of the time Metro has a shuttle service to the event from several Park and Ride locations around Houston. And the events are not always held in an enclosed area like the Reliant Stadium and Center. So you can have people that are armed getting on the bus.

Lucky45

05:20 PM CDT on Wednesday, March 28, 2007

By Jason Whitely / KHOU 11 News

Man shot, killed on Metro bus

City bus riders heading in to Houston witnessed the unthinkable. â€œWe saw this big light and this big pop. My ears are still ringing,â€? said Gwen Guidry.

Sheâ€™s a nurse who was on her way to work at Methodist Hospital.

Police say they think a young white man, who just boarded, gunned down a fellow rider.

â€œThe suspect was on his making his way through the center aisle when he brushed up against the victim,â€? said Captain Dwayne Ready with the Houston Police Department.

â€œThe guy bumped him,â€? said Effrom Mooring who was on the bus. â€œThey exchanged words. The guy pulled out a gun and shot him. Just for bumping him.â€?

The victim, who was shot once in the chest, was an older African-American man.

Troy Andrewsâ€™ wife was on the bus. â€œHe was gasping for air and thereâ€™s no way she (Gwen Guidry) could help him.â€?

The victim walked to the front of the bus and collapsed before dying in the doorway.

â€œI tried to revive him. I did what I could. But it wasnâ€™t happening,â€? said Guidry.

Witnesses say the victim bumped the suspect and the two argued near the middle of the bus before the shooting.
The shooting happened about 11:45 Wednesday morning on Metro bus 3269 in west Houston.

â€œEverybody started ducking and hollering. He just put the gun back in his pants and politely walked to the back of the bus and sat down,â€? said Andrews.

Capt. Ready says they had no problem arresting the gunman. â€œThe suspect at the time when officers arrived was at the back of the bus with his hands up and was taken into custody without further incident.â€?

â€œItâ€™s crazy man. I donâ€™t know why you shoot somebody because they bumped you. Say excuse me and thatâ€™ll be it. Thereâ€™s no reason to kill anybody,â€? said Mooring.

None of the other 12 passengers on the bus was hurt.

Some did complain of chest pains and anxiety from bearing witness to a crime they canâ€™t comprehend.

Many consider this a murder on Metro over something so insignificant.

The names of the suspect and victim have not been released.

Did race play a role seeing as the suspect is a young white man and the victim was an older black man?

HPD says it doesnâ€™t think so from the words that were exchanged although they havenâ€™t released the conversation publicly.

My question is as a CHL holder on board that bus, what would be your options.
1. Do you draw your weapons out of self defense, since you can't escape a moving crowded bus safely? Holding the suspect at gunpoint since you are in fear of your life since he MIGHT go beserk?

2. Sit and do nothing, hoping he is not desperate and not start shooting others?
2.

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