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Dave2 wrote:

RoyGBiv wrote:

2firfun50 wrote:I've got a serious question for those opposed to paying for health insurance or being taxed for that decision.
I understand that Plan A is to never have a serious illness or injury, not pay any taxes, or health insurance, etc..
But if misfortune should strike, what is Plan B? Who pays the bill?

This is an excellent question, but it's framed in a way that might cause folks to try and answer you in a narrow way...

A broader question would be "How do you fix healthcare so that fewer folks are without coverage?"
And as we all know, the answer is complicated... But, let me try and answer your question with some healthcare "fixes" and we'll see how it goes..

1. Postulate: If insurance costs less, more people will buy it. The cost of insurance is too high, because the cost of healthcare is too high and regulations and laws are misguided, causing further cost escalation.
- Reform healthcare tort, set limits on malpractice suits based on some reasonable categorization of injury/disability/etc.

That and bringing down the cost of medical education. The first two things I keep hearing people mention in defense of paying doctors a lot are "malpractice insurance" and "student loans". I'll bet you could say the same thing about medical companies and their employees, respectively, as well.

I think we can all agree that the cost of health care is way, way too high. I'm afraid we are never going to see the cost go down without drastic changes to the business model.

I suspect part of the answer to the original question "Plan B" goes something like described below.

People have an unexpected medical emergency, such as a heart attack. Someone dials 911. Patient receives a tax supported ambulance ride to a private, for profit hospital for minimum life support care. They then receive another tax supported ambulance ride to a tax supported hospital for the remainder of necessary treatment. Both hospitals, all doctors, and ambulance services try to collect, but the patient does not have the ability to pay. Patient goes bankrupt to get the bill collectors off their backs. Every provider then raise their fees to collect from the taxpayers and their customers with insurance. Local taxes go up and insurance premiums go up. The cycle repeats.

I absolutely am not talking about deadbeats, but people who work hard and the wages received barely takes care of essentials.

I've got a serious question for those opposed to paying for health insurance or being taxed for that decision.

I understand that Plan A is to never have a serious illness or injury, not pay any taxes, or health insurance, etc..

But if misfortune should strike, what is Plan B? Who pays the bill?

[quote="The Annoyed Man"]

1. The middle east is in flames.
2. China is not only threatening a bond attack on Japan, but they've moved naval assets into Japanese territorial waters and refuse to leave......and there exists an official Chinese map that shows those islands as belonging to Japan, so this is just a pretext for something else.....like the U.S. is busy and impotent, so we'll make trouble.
3. Syrian jets are bombing Lebanon.
4. Iran Revolutionary Guard troops are in both Syria and Lebanon (which Beiruty cannot blame on "The Jews").
5. Russia is making a play for sponsoring Syria.
6. An American ambassador is killed along with three others.
7. The white house press office is saying that the attack was not an attack on America.
8. The administration has an obnoxious film maker arrested in violation of his first amendment rights (while Michael Moore still roams free, not paying his fair share in taxes and scarfing up all the food.
9. The white house has nothing to say about Bill Maher's equally insulting movie which attacks muslims as well as christians.
10. Iraq is lost.
11. Afghanistan is about to be lost.
12. Iran has committed submarines to the gulf in preparation of blocking the straights of Hormuz.
13. Iran is now 6 months from being a nuclear armed nation.
14. Our embassy in LONDON, ENGLAND is set on fire by radical Islamist retards.
15. Israel is about to act unilaterally since Obama has thrown her to the wolves.
16. Obama's Sec State is strangely silent for the past couple of days, and various surrogates are instead speaking the administration's positions on all of these foreign developments.
17. And this doesn't even BEGIN to address the fact that economy is in the crapper and Obama is an obstructionist to anything that would improve it.

Obama's answer to all of this? OMG!!!!! DID YOU HEAR WHAT ROMNEY SAID YESTERDAY?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Excellent summary

I see 3 choices or approaches:

1. Begin a military build-up unheard of since WWII. Bring back the draft. Invade all of the middle east and prepare to invade China. Then maintain a huge occupying force until we run out of money. That will fix the unemployment problem, not sure about the national debt tho.

2. Nuke'em and make the entire area uninhabitable for the next 1000 yrs. (sorry about the loss of all the oil). But watch out for the pesky Chinese.

3. Get out of dodge. Concentrate on our own business. Secure our borders, protect our freedoms, care for our poor and disadvantaged, cut off all foreign aid, rebuild our infrastructure.

Any other ideas?

RoyGBiv wrote:

2firfun50 wrote:In my opionion, Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are not "entitlements". They are forced investments in the future. We have paid into that system since 1939 and it is too late to call a mulligan. For me, "Now" is the future I have been investing in it for a total of 47 yrs. It is time.

Its time to quit playing the shell game and get serious. The balloon payments are due. Neither party. nor the American people have the will or the courage.

Maybe you didn't catch this bit of news this week.
http://blog.aarp.org/2012/08/06/the-tak ... -get-back/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
How mad does it make you to know that putting your money in a passbook savings account would leave you better off than putting it into the SS Trust fund? It certainly makes me

If you LISTEN to Obama/Biden/Romney/Ryan, and then critically evaluate what they're saying, there's only one guy with un-impeachable credentials as a deficit and spending Hawk... Ryan. Ryan was the only guy in Congress with the testicular fortitude to put forward his own budget, including fixes to entitlements, then show it to the world and stand the heat and fury of being the guy that would push granny off the cliff. Listen to Ryan, give him the chance. He'll win you over. And he's open to negotiation and better ideas. But he's the ONLY guy brave enough to put his flag in the ground and start the discussion. He's an easy target, but thus far still standing. He's flourishing, because he's the only 100% true to himself guy on either ticket.

Teamless wrote: 1 - they already paid their 23% on money they earned, then they took that earned (and taxed money) and invested it, and paid another 15% on earnings there, so they are essentially DOUBLE TAXED.
2 - they are [only] paying 15% on investment gains, but how much did they actually lose on their other investments?
So in the end, how much are they really paying out?
23% originally
15% on earnings
??? of losses?

Spot-on
Investors create jobs for the rest of us.

Excellent post and I really appreciate your entering into a real discussion!!!!!!!

I could easily be moved over to Ryan's side. However, as Vice President, he loses his powerful seat in the house. He now becomes a non factor after the election if Romney wins. I can only support him if he is at the top of the ticket, not second fiddle. I believe the Republican party is doing the same thing they did with Teddy Roosevelt, getting him out of the way. Worked out pretty good for the country, not so good for JP Morgan.

I flat do not trust Mitt Romney. In my eyes, he represents the worst of the "connected class".

As near as I can research, the Social Security trust Fund is owed 27% of the national debt. That money has been borrowed to support other government spending. That equates to over $3 trillion owed to everyone. With the aging population and more people becoming eligble for benefits, that money needs to be paid back (with interest) so it is available to pay benefits. That and with continuing contributions should be plenty for retirement and inproved medical benefits.

The Federal reserve is owed 17% of the national debt. That money needs to be paid back (with interest) and made available for private investment to start new business, grow current business, and be available for private consumer lending. All of which will stimulate the economy and be beneficial for job growth. $2+ trillon dollars should be plenty to get us out of this recession. The holders of these securities are also getting older and will want to "cash in" and begin spending what they have earned in their later years (money goes straight into the economy).

Where is the money to pay back these loans? Tax money of course. So taxes for everyone are going to have to increase in a fair and equitable manner. I'm tired of paying 23% while those living off investments are paying 15%. We cannot expect the working poor to pay much, there is no blood left in the turnip. Tax breaks for overseas profit, overseas investments, and yes even the beloved home mortage deduction must go. That is nothing more than a government subsudy for the housing industry.

On the spending side, budgets near and dear to many are going to be forced downward. Military spending, foreign aid, pet congressional projects (pork which gets you re-elected). They must be cut far enough to allow substantial regular, routine payments to Social Security and the Federal Reserve (buy back the bonds, notes etc and force the money into the private sector).

In my opionion, Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are not "entitlements". They are forced investments in the future. We have paid into that system since 1939 and it is too late to call a mulligan. For me, "Now" is the future I have been investing in it for a total of 47 yrs. It is time.

Its time to quit playing the shell game and get serious. The balloon payments are due. Neither party. nor the American people have the will or the courage.

Heartland Patriot wrote:

2firfun50 wrote:Maybe I'll be the first to come out and openly say I'm an Obama supporter. Why am I an Obama supporter? Here is why.

1. I'm a college educated engineer who has prostituted myself for the military/industrial complex for 32 yrs. and can not afford to retire. Our for profit health care costs more than my pension.
2. I can't support anyone whose tax plan favors the rich and punish the ones who made them rich.
3. Trickle down economics simply does not work. The rich do not create jobs unless they get richer.
4. If you a little root cause analysis of our current economic crisis, you might just discover (as I have) it all started while Republicans were in control of all 3 branches of government.
5. You can't be at war for over 10 yrs., finance it it "off budget" expenditures, and cut taxes at the same time. The balloon payment is now due. And those who got rich off of the past policies need to pay the bill.

So, were you IN the military, or did you simply work for a defense contractor? And if YOU want to use the word "prostituted", well you don't seem to think to highly of YOUR career choice it would seem. I spent just over 20 years turning wrenches as an aircraft mechanic for the USAF, and overall, I'm proud of the work I did. Numbers two and three in your list seem like something right out of the works of Karl Marx, mere rhetorical class warfare. As to number four, WHERE did you "discover" that information? And with number five, yes, the wars have been expensive, no doubt...but less expensive than entitlement spending, and you can see that from the government sources, even. Seems like GE, whose jet engines that I like BTW, have made a LOT of money off of this...but they managed to dodge paying taxes...and they are HUGE Democrat Party supporters...so that last one doesn't quite wash, either.

I spent 4 yrs in the 2d Armored Division, Fort Hood Tx. Overseas twice. I was very proud of my career choices until the 2nd invasion of Iraq. Are still looking for the WMDs?

Didn't get squat in benefits out of my army time, not getting squat now out of my retirement. Since you spent over 20 yrs in the USAF, you should be drawing a 50% or better pension. Full medical coverage etc. You earned it and I'm paying for it. No complaints

Just want what I earned, just like you. Nothing more, nothing less. If you are willing to give up yours, I'm willing to give up mine.

Maybe I'll be the first to come out and openly say I'm an Obama supporter. Why am I an Obama supporter? Here is why.

1. I'm a college educated engineer who has prostituted myself for the military/industrial complex for 32 yrs. and can not afford to retire. Our for profit health care costs more than my pension.
2. I can't support anyone whose tax plan favors the rich and punish the ones who made them rich.
3. Trickle down economics simply does not work. The rich do not create jobs unless they get richer.
4. If you a little root cause analysis of our current economic crisis, you might just discover (as I have) it all started while Republicans were in control of all 3 branches of government.
5. You can't be at war for over 10 yrs., finance it it "off budget" expenditures, and cut taxes at the same time. The balloon payment is now due. And those who got rich off of the past policies need to pay the bill.