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anygunanywhere wrote:July 4th I am flying the flag upside down.

cb1000rider wrote:Jim, I think we're discussing marriage, not sex. Easy to confuse the two, but SCOTUS is ruling on marriage, so I'll try to stick to topics central to that.

This thread has actually been remarkably calm and well discussed!

Jim Beaux wrote: "the fact is homophobia is a natural instinct"

K... Ignoring the fact that such a statement has some cultural parallels across the decades, we'll take that at face value.. And apparently there have been studies on it - largely if it's a social reaction or if it's a legitimate evolutionary response. Basically, I agree that it's a legit idea. You're arguing that homophobia is perfectly natural.. If that's so wouldn't anything else that exists in nature be "natural" too?

I don't know that being "natural" is a good excuse for any behavior, as we'll always have behaviors outside the median that are just as natural. If we want everyone to behave approximately the same way, only within a very narrow margin of that normal bell curve, that's probably not America. It'd make for boring politics and really meaningless debates.

Q: How do you know a homosexual when you see one? Short of a pride parade or special interest event, can you point them out? Know which co-workers? Know which forum members? Hard to be afraid of people that look like you, dress like you, but have different behavior in their own homes... Just like the OC people, it's easy to get mad at in-your-face behavior that we don't like.. I totally get that and I'm with you... I really don't think that's the majority. I don't know how you can be afraid of something you come across every day, but probably don't know about.

Jim Beaux wrote: Extending marriage rights to gays not only gives them advantages over the average straight citizen..

I can't come up with an example. What are you thinking about? What bought about this whole issue was a legitimate difference in rights and privileged not afforded to a "class" of people. If those disadvantages didn't exist, I for one could completely ignore calls to change anything and would have zero compassion for an equality issue. The morality issue is stone cold, but we don't exactly class people by their level of personal morality unless that morality hits "criminal". If we did, we'd have to discriminate against all the gluttons, drunks, adulterers, liars, and general backyard BBQ type sinners.

You've already stated that the normal reaction is fear/anxiety (phobia) from normal people. Being the target of that phobia is inherently a huge social disadvantage. It's a disadvantage when getting hired, it's a disadvantage when walking down the street, and it's a disadvantage when you meet a bunch of perfectly natural homophobic strangers in a dark alley. Given a proclivity either way, which lifestyle would be easier? Don't just consider today, consider the last 60 years or so... I've got a hard time thinking about it as an advantage.

PS. Anyone who wants plural marriage can have it... Me, I've got my hands full already.

Pedophilia has already been granted protected status by the Federal Government. The Matthew Shephard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act lists “sexual orientation” as a protected class; however, it does not define the term.

Republicans attempted to add an amendment specifying that “pedophilia is not covered as an orientation;” however, the amendment was defeated by Democrats. Rep. Alcee Hastings (D-Fl) stated that all alternative sexual lifestyles should be protected under the law. “This bill addresses our resolve to end violence based on prejudice and to guarantee that all Americans, regardless of race, color, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability or all of these ‘philias’ and fetishes and ‘isms’ that were put forward need not live in fear because of who they are. I urge my colleagues to vote in favor of this rule.”

Earlier this year two psychologists in Canada declared that pedophilia is a sexual orientation just like homosexuality or heterosexuality.

Van Gijseghem, psychologist and retired professor of the University of Montreal, told members of Parliament, “Pedophiles are not simply people who commit a small offense from time to time but rather are grappling with what is equivalent to a sexual orientation just like another individual may be grappling with heterosexuality or even homosexuality.”

"If you are among the many Americans -- of whatever sexual orientation -- who favor expanding same-sex marriage, by all means celebrate today's decision. Celebrate the achievement of a desired goal. Celebrate the opportunity for a new expression of commitment to a partner. Celebrate the availability of new benefits. But do not celebrate the Constitution. It had nothing to do with it."