TexasCHLforum.com

Dragonfighter wrote:

BKRushing wrote:

psijac wrote:

BKRushing wrote:
Big difference between a hero complex and a hero. Zimmerman was playing cop without the training an LEO has and made poor choices with a tragic outcome.

I am no law enforcement office but what kind of cop training would have prevented this tragedy?

My point is an LEO would not be alone, would have at least been readily identifiable as an LEO and most likely would have his/her lights flashing on their cruiser. Provided Martin was not breaking the law, he would have had nothing to fear from a police officer questioning him. As I have said in previous posts, this is a case of two people making poor choices. Martin for trying to confront Zimmerman about why he was following him and Zimmerman for getting out of his car to follow him which as far as I know all neighborhood watch volunteers are told not to do. It is not a clear cut instance of racial profiling, but rather an instance two people making some poor choices with a tragic outcome.

Or what if he was off duty, on the way to the store and got out to follow the suspicious person while calling it in. No gun or badge showing, not in uniform, same result? Maybe, or do a lot of LEOs happen to be in uniform or have their badges visible at all times.

cbunt1 wrote:I've been biting my tongue here for months on this thing. I can't stand it any longer. I'll try to summarize my thoguhts, put them out there, and see what everyone thinks.

1) Zimmerman made tactical errors, and judgement errors. He's not "perfect" as some say, but I don't think he was specifically "looking for a fight" as others would say.
2) Martin was no innocent kid. He (apparently) was somewhere he had the right to be (Staying with a relative), but the way he allegedly ended up there tells us of his background. Not perfect...by any stretch.
3) Between the MSM Hype/spin/selling commercials, the prosecution's witch hunt, and the defense keeping their case close to the vest (we hope, if they're worth what they're being paid) there are KEY FACTS we're not yet privvy to. We can only make our judgements based on what we have.
4) GIven (1) and (2) above, the CRIMINAL side of this doesn't really boil down to the entire incident, but the last 20-30 seconds of Martin's troubled life. From what evidence we have available, it appears that Zimmerman had cause to be in fear for his life--the head injuries at least make this PLAUSIBLE.

In short, Zimmerman *MAY* be 'elgible' for a manslaughter trial, with a defense of justifiable homicide. Murder indicates premeditation, and I really don't think that's where we're at--at least not based on what *I* get out of what's been released.

In short, the CRIMINAL side of this boils down to "does Z have the right to defend himself with deadly force." ALL the rest of this--the part that has otherwise reasonable and like-minded people at each others' throats--is a CIVIL issue...the "Was it preventable" side of it, or the "Should he?" question.


All the discussion and arguement is valid, but lets remember the difference between a criminal act, and the civil side of it...criminal law is necesarily very narrowly defined, and asks/answers very narrow questions about specific PARTS of the incident.

We talk about the "TOTALITY of the circumstance," but that's not as much the subject of a criminal trial as it is the subject of "what really happened here."

And let us never forget that in the end, the facts are only an element of the truth--that the "whole truth" is more than just the raw facts...the FACT that Nolan Ryan threw more home runs than any other pitcher in history doesn't tell the TRUTH that he's the greatest pitcher of all time....

The only thing we can truly be certain of is that this case is destined to set precedents. The sad thing is that it didn't have to, but at this point, there's no way it can't.

Whew. Now that I've got that off my chest, I now return you to the heart of the discussion!

ScooterSissy wrote:

BKRushing wrote: ...
My point is an LEO would not be alone, would have at least been readily identifiable as an LEO and most likely would have his/her lights flashing on their cruiser. Provided Martin was not breaking the law, he would have had nothing to fear from a police officer questioning him. As I have said in previous posts, this is a case of two people making poor choices. Martin for trying to confront Zimmerman about why he was following him and Zimmerman for getting out of his car to follow him which as far as I know all neighborhood watch volunteers are told not to do. It is not a clear cut instance of racial profiling, but rather an instance two people making some poor choices with a tragic outcome.

Unfortunately, "poor choice" is the appropriate term for part of this, and way too mild for other parts.

Martin confronting Zimmerman, and Zimmerman choosing to follow might both be "poor choices".

Martin attacking Zimmerman may have been a "poor choice", but it was much more than that, and much more than either of the other two "poor choices". It was illegal. And that was what got Martin killed.

psijac wrote:

BKRushing wrote:
Big difference between a hero complex and a hero. Zimmerman was playing cop without the training an LEO has and made poor choices with a tragic outcome.

I am no law enforcement office but what kind of cop training would have prevented this tragedy?

Heartland Patriot wrote:

WildBill wrote:

BKRushing wrote:

The Mad Moderate wrote:I think the "hero complex" explains a lot of this.

Totally agree on the hero complex.

Of course, it's not against the law to have a hero complex. Whether or not his actions were legally justified still needs to be adjudicated.

Seems like its been made illegal to have a "hero complex" in some peoples' minds. However, being a "gangsta" is quite alright. Remember, its only ANTI-heros that are "cool" these days...our society has been damaged far beyond the capacity of most to comprehend even how much. I'm not saying I can see all the damage either...I just realize that damage has been done.

The Mad Moderate wrote:I think the "hero complex" explains a lot of this.

psijac wrote:

BKRushing wrote:Latest news has it that the results of an FBI Investigation into the shooting concluded Zimmerman did not racially profile Trayvon Martin. I for one am glad to hear that. I think people throw the race card a little too quickly in a lot of cases like these.

i would like to see your source on this. I find it hard to believe an agency that falls under the depth of justice comming to the conclusion that racism did not occur.

speedsix wrote:...refreshingly accurate, clear-headed, and well put...welcome to the forum...this may be the best post in all these many pages!!! You've got my vote!!!