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txinvestigator wrote:

Show Killer wrote:
Thank You, this is exactly what i'm thinking.

I did not draw, brandish or threaten to use deadly force. I highly doubt the guy even knew I was carrying. In this situation I was merely preparing to draw had the guy continued his approach and actually attacked me.

.

Again, you cannot draw on someone who "attacks" you, unless the attack is with deadly force or attempted deadly force.

Thats why I always suggest a gun carrier also have a less lethal means of defense. For me, that is OC.

Less than lethal means...

Seems reasonable to me...I've always liked that concept...

If someone continues to press the threat to you after getting a dose of that stuff...Well, I guess that makes it easier or harder (depending on how you look at it) to consider using "deadly force"...

Don't get me wrong, I know some people who would draw at the drop of a hat...And I have told them they are wrong and unreasonable to have that idea...I know others that would probably do nothing...And thusly they would become a statistic...

I believe we balance those two extremes very well, regardless of what we've said in this discussion...

Its that fine line, and trigger pull you can make that changes everything from then on out...

Well, maybe I can contribute a thought or two...

"If" you draw your firearm in reaction to a "reasonable perception" of force, or deadly force threat to you...You very simply have an advantage, depending on what, if anything could be used against you in that regard...

The (tactical, not justified) advantage of presenting your weapon to counter that threat, leaves the decision to the person threatening you to continue...

You may have the tactical advantage, but not the justifiable advantage...

So if you do "draw", you are simply a trigger pull away from the incident being a murder charge against you, or a justifiable self-defensive use of deadly force...

The advantage we have here so far is that we are discussing our personal interpretations about law, human nature, and how potential conflicts are resolved when you put the two subjects together...Whether it be a slap, or someone coming up to you at a stop light weilding a crowbar, or worse a "gun"...In which the latter can be dealt with with the use (not the threat to use) of deadly force as discussed before...

Like I was trying to say before about slapping/hitting etc etc...

You should, but don't take my advise, try to disengage from a slapping or hitting assault...If that does not work, then, in my opinion, you should do what you think might stop the assault with what means you have on hand...That being your decision (or not) to draw and instructing them to stop...At which point, even an "unreasonable" person assaulting you "may", or "may not" stop...

Any decision you make after that, is something that you may have made already...

I figure what we are doing here, at this point, is trying to understand why we would make that decision, and putting it though a legal filter to make sure we got our ducks in a row in that regard...

If anything...I believe another legal seminar, like the one Charles coordinated before, might be something we should try to get going again...

I would think it would be good to try to centralize (geographically) it so many of the folks on the forum who are not in the Houston area could attend...

If I were to throw a dart (as an idea) at a map and hit somewhere around Temple, Texas...

To me knowing the membership distribution, that being about as central to the majority of folks, might be something to consider...

But I'm just full of crazy ideas...

Question...

Is the point of contention possibly in the terminology used so far???

"slap" vs. "strike with hand, either closed or open"???

Either way I have heard over the years that "simple" assault could be defined by the manner in which a hand is either open or closed to present either an insulting strike with an open handed slap to the facial area, or a closed "fist" to the same area, designed to inflict a more serious injurous attack???

Either way, thats an assault...To the degree in which it is delivered or percieved to be delivered may, or may not warrant a presentation or potential defensive use of force, or deadly force response...

Guys...

To me this is really a simple issue, I am not saying anyone is making this difficult or contentious...I think we all know, regardless of where you fall on this, that we know we are very capable of dealing with something like this very decisively...

Would we be in the right to shove a .45 up under someone's nose after they "slapped" us???

Or would it be better to turn around, and leave to difuse the situation, and do our part to disengage to prevent any further assault??? Now, of course if the slappee follows you, and continues the assault...Well, that may be a separate issue and discussion...That is certainly a risk you take by walking away...And you may have to take a few lumps before effectively getting away from that person(s)...

Either way...It is a difficult decision to make, and I know with high confidence that the good manners and genuine maturity of people I know of on this forum, that it would take a lot more than a slap to the face to warrant the use of force, or the threat to use, deadly force to stop an assault...

The thing that pops into my mind is the beginning of a question you have to ask yourself...But certainly not at the time of an incident:

"Would a reasonable person _______________..." (fill in the blank)

I believe, without a doubt that we are all reasonable people, that use good judgement, react properly and effectively to any incident...We are certainly not perfect, but you should strive to be so...And encourage others to do the same...

My intention is not to appear to get on anyones case exclusively, but to offer what I hope is understood to be an objective analysis...And not be critical of one or more persons opinion or thoughts...

Like I've always said...Better to work it out here, than try to figure it out when you don't have the leisure of time out in the world...

This place offers that opportunity...

txinvestigator wrote:

one eyed fatman wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:

one eyed fatman wrote:

am with Flintknapper here.........a person threatening you with non-deadly force does not justify you to use deadly force, and in most cases would not justify threatening to use deadly force as per TPC 9.04.

And what is non-deadly force? Do I dig out and start reading my book of rules while being threatened or hit in the face? If someone gets out of their car and says I'm going to kill you is that non-deadly force? Face it, if you get into a situation your going to have to figure out on your own if it's non-deadly force or not. Good luck to everyone of us on that one.

The penal code STATES that Force is not justified in response to verbal provication alone. Non deadly force os force that is not capable of causing serious bodily injury or death.

Hit in the face? If I slap you across the face are you going to shoot me?[/quote]

Pretty damn good chance. You would see a gun in your face.

And you would go to prison. Seems like a bad decision to me.

[/quote]

Not if you have a good lawyer...

Zha-Zha Gabor got off for slapping an LEO in the face...She took the ride, but she got off pretty light if I recall correctly...

But all in all, you'd be better off de-escalating the situation by taking the "lick", knowing if it goes further after that, you might consider presenting them an option to stop the assault...

In my younger and woolier days...I climbed over bigger people to get into a scrape, and still got my asterix handed to me...And those people eventually became some of my closest friends who knew they could count on me...I was pretty stupid back then...

My approach these days is to have that little secret that no one knows about, and does not want to find out about...It also keeps me out of trouble more than anything...I guess I have mellowed in my early "middle age", so I just don't see myself getting into little scrapes anymore...

Interesting how Austin seems to be the grand jury shopping capital of...uhhhh...

Well, you know what I mean...

nitrogen wrote:2 days before I got my CHL, I was almost run off the road by someone. My fianceé and I were driving to dinner, when in the left lane on George Bush Turnpike, doing 80. He wanted to go a lot faster. He was tailgaiting me, about 4-6 inches from my bumper. Considering the traffic to the right of me was going much slower, I didn't feel the need to move over. (I'm an ass like that I guess.)

My wife thinks I'm a lot like that too...

I just tell her I am an aggressively defensive driver...Well...Its true!

Charles L. Cotton wrote:This is a general comment and is not directed to Show Killer's scenario.

I know this will sound counter-intuitive, but if there is a chance you may have to shoot, don't roll the car window up, get it down quickly! If you have to fire through a car window, you may well have a face full of glass shards, including in your eyes and/or eyelids.

Chas.

You got that right...

But isn't it amazing how many incidences like this happen, and nobody actually gets hurt, or shot for that matter...Every single day...

But when you think about it though Charles...Would you think that by rolling down the window, that action escalates, or sends a "primal" signal to the dunderhead coming at you in a situation like this that you wish to "discuss" the issue further???

Not that that particular aspect causes me to hesitate defending myself if the approach demonstrates an intent to physically harm me...At which point, that window may come down if I cannot safely disengage from that person...