Search found 2 matches

by srothstein
Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:10 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Hand Loads for Self Defense
Replies: 31
Views: 4967

Re: Hand Loads for Self Defense

Bisley wrote:Would you also address the question of whether the use of hand loads for self defense would be any more likely to put a person in civil jeopardy, than say, having attended a hand gun self defense school?

The reason I ask for this comparison is that so many of the self defense writers that advise most stridently against the use of hand loaded ammo, will then recommend that a concealed handgun permit holder attend as many self defense classes as possible. To me, this is a bit of a contradiction, in that either could be 'spun' to suggest that a person was seeking a deadly confrontation.
Many of the writers and instructors will tell you to avoid doing anything that could be used against you or make you look bad in court. Handloads are hard to explain as better than factory loads. For the non-gun and non-technical jury member, it is easier for the plaintiff or DA to show you loaded them to be more deadly, and claim this proves the intent to kill. They will also have the rounds from your gun there, along with the fired rounds. If they really wanted to be unfair, compare your handload (hollow point and mushroomed, probably) to how the standard military round (full metal jacket ball ammo, almost untouched and still round) looks and they can easily convince the jury you meant to injure more. The caliber you chose can also be used this way, as Harold Fish found out with his 10 mm rounds (IIRC).

Training, on the other hand, is much easier to show as being defensive in nature. "I went to extra training to make sure I could hit only my target and not innocent bystanders" as one example. "I went to training to learn how to not get killed myself or get my gun taken away from me" is another. And not having the course in court to show people, they would have to rely on your description of what you learned or the trainer's advertising and testimony. Not too many trainers are willing to say "I taught him how to kill people more efficiently" so it is less likely to get brought up.

The last thing to remember is that many of these gun writers are located in other states and governed by other laws. When you are writing for national audiences, you cannot be too careful on what you say. Many of them also repeat old wives tales that have been accepted for years. I don't really know if handloads would be used against you in court because almost everyone has bought into this theory and we all recommend using standard ammo, preferably the same ammo the local police use in the same caliber. Are we right or are we just a self-fulfilling prophecy?
by srothstein
Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:22 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Hand Loads for Self Defense
Replies: 31
Views: 4967

Re: Hand Loads for Self Defense

Kevinf2349 wrote:I thought that if there was no criminal case then there couldn't be a civil case as this would break the law in and of itself?
CPRC CH. 83. USE OF DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON
CPRC g 83.001. ClVlL IMMUNITY. A defendant who uses force or
deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9, Penal Code, is immune
from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the
defendant's use of force or deadly force, as applicable.
You have a slight misunderstanding of the way the criminal laws work. The flaw in your logic is that the criminal side does not have a way for the courts to rule that the use of force was justified. The DA may decide not to file charges for this reason, but that does not mean the courts would agree. The Grand Jury does not give a reason when it returns a no bill. It could be the force was justified and it could be the DA just could not prove his case. The same is true in a regular trial (not enough evidence or the defense of use of justification proven). So, there may be a civil trial where the defense would be the use of force was justified. When this is proven, the defense will win the case, but it would take a trial to get to the ruling.

The real advantage of the immunity law is in its application in the real world. Most civil cases are taken on a contingency basis, where the lawyer gets paid out of the winnings. If there is little or no chance to win, the lawyers won't take the case. But a person does not really need a lawyer to file, or the plaintiff himself may be an attorney. The discouragement would not affect them. Nor would it affect some agencies that are truly anti-gun and think they might have a chance. Look at some of the shootings that the Brady Campaign has gotten behind. A third group it might not discourage is the ambulance chasers who know that a homeowner has insurance and they will offer $25,000 instead of going to court, simply because it is cheaper.

So, be prepared for the mental aggravation of a law suit after any use of force. You will probably win, but there is always the chance of the lawsuit and its hassles anyway.

Return to “Hand Loads for Self Defense”