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I find the reload/no reload requirement discussion interesting because there are valid arguments on both sides.

For the purposes of full disclosure my carry weapon is 10+1.

On the pro-reload side, reloads can be needed for reasons other that ammunition capacity. It can be necessitated due to a mechanical failure as well. I think we can all agree that the ability to reload effectively and quickly under pressure is an important and often overlooked skill.

On the 'real world" side of the debate, it is reasonable to assume the barring a malfunction, someone with adequate capacity is going to blast away as fast as accurately possible to neutralize any and every threat presented and then reload as necessary...don't forget to reload at the end of the confrontation as it might not be over.

There is no way that AndyC, or anyone can design a quick and dirty drill of take into account every permutation of circumstances. I suggest that he accept any suggestions that seem to fit within his goal. In fact, he already seems to be doing this. Then he can design whatever suits him and present it as he intends.

He is not requiring that we walk lockstep and always do as he suggests. I think we all agree with this. However, if we want credit for doing HIS exercise successfully, we should do it HIS way. Then we can get the patch, or gold star or gunfighter certificate or whatever. THEN:

If we have adequate capacity then we can try it without the reload if we want to see what we can do for what might be real world for us. Nothing prevents us from doing it that way for our own purposes.

AndyC, I look forward to trying whatever you come up with.

For what it is worth, my suggestion would be to allow make up shots as long as they are within the time parameters.

This is a very engaging discussion. The tone and mutual respect shown here certainly demonstrate why this is a superior site and why many of us hold it in high regard. Thanks all!

Excaliber wrote:
If we're aiming for practical application, this doesn't make sense to me.

Part of the value of the exercise derives from learning how well both you and your chosen equipment fare when you go up against the time, movement, and accuracy requirements of a real world defensive encounter.

Keep in mind that the dynamics of an incident won't change in your favor if you choose to handicap yourself with a small caliber or limited capacity handgun. Time frames won't lengthen, attacks won't slow down, bad guys won't be more easily disabled, misses won't get alibis, and there sure as shootin' won't be any timeouts for reloads.

I support designing the course along the lines of a generic defensive encounter against at least 2 assailants and preserving the full value of learning from it.

Well said. In an actual defensive confrontation the tools you have chosen to use are the tools YOU have chosen to use. If YOUR selections put you at a disadvantage, because a bigger weapon is not too comfortable, or because Texas is just too hot in the summer to try to conceal my "other" carry weapon, or it is just too hard to fit a weapon of higher capacity in a front pants pocket, then perhaps, this exercise will be an eye-opener for some to reconsider their choice of tools or the manner in which they are carried.

On the other hand, it might provide incentive to increase the skill level with the tool choices that have been made.

Please understand that I am not trying to disagree with anyone's choice of carry weapon or the reasons for any particular selection. Certainly any is better than none, but as Excaliber correctly pointed out, the real world is not particularly understanding or compassionate or fair.

MoJo, that sounds like a pretty demanding skill test too. Please don't think my comments below in any way reflect poorly on that skill set.

If Andy's specific drill is based on the Air Marshal test, it likely encompasses a wider variety of skills. His would probably be closer to what the Air Marshals and we as CHL'ers might have to encounter. Part of the AM qualifier begins with a draw from concealment, it involves reloads, multiple targets and even turn and fire. Since we are law abiding civilians who are required to conceal, we are ALWAYS going to be starting behind the curve. Perhaps we should just incorporate that handicap into our practice and training.

The above is worth approximately $0.02, but it is mine. Two cents just doesn't go as far as it used to.

By the way, if anyone wants information regarding the qualification drill we have been talking about, just google 'air marshal qualification' and you will see written descriptions of the drills and target and there will also be some youtube videos of folks shooting it.

Each individual string as well as cumulative scores and times must be passed or it counts as a 'fail'. For the Air Marshals, that was a fly or no-fly, result.

Good luck

texastactical wrote:Let us know what you come up with. We will work it into one of the Texas Tactical IDPA Matches.

Andy and Mike,

I am assuming that your are talking about the 'old' Air Marshall qualifier that used the hour-glass target as your starting point...the one with 3 strings, turn and draw etc.

I have used it from time to time and it is indeed a very challenging course of fire. Unfortunately, I understand that they no longer use it.

I have toyed with the idea of converting it to an IDPA course of fire. Because of the nature of the original qualifier, it would have to be done as multiple string stage. The standard IDPA target could be modified to make hard cover of everything except the -0 and -1 areas to replicate the hour glass target. The original qualifier uses 3 targets but a modification could be made to use only two for the IDPA strings, to move things along a bit faster for a group.

Andy, actually the short time and low round count would not be a real issue for IDPA. In a well run club that uses a variety of stages for the shooters, a 'quick and dirty, up close and personal' stage can be a very interesting and fun diversion.

Mike, at Texas Tactical, has been known to include a stage with three strings of a 1 shot draw and fire exercise at arms length distance.

Your topic has inspired me to find my old paperwork on the Air Marshal drill to work on this. It could even be scored as a standard IDPA scenario but also have a pass/fail component using the Air Marshall standards. Might be really interesting.

Andy, best of luck on your efforts and definitely keep us posted.

By the way, I really do enjoy your many thoughtful, and thought provoking, contributions to this site. You are a valuable asset to TexasCHLForum. Thank you!