TexasCHLforum.com

G26ster wrote:
ok.. in your squad... how many total members, of those members how many have side arms...of a standard squad... ... we are dealing with semantics.... yes its a standard issue of the army, no it is not issued to every one... This the exact point I was making... there are far more m4/a2 platforms issued than m9 sidearms..

Of course there are more rifles issued, and I was not disputing that, but I was not addressing your "point." I was addressing a specific statement you made that was untrue, when it comes to Infantry, when you said "the Infantry is not issued a sidearm." It matters little what your overall message was, or whether you actually meant to say that Infantry is issued few sidearms. I was correcting a single statement you made. Nothing more.[/quote]


you need to go back to the original statement and stop using your own definition... I said and I requote....

its not considered a primary weapon

... you, your self, said it was/is a defensive weapon..

G26ster wrote:

67SS wrote:not sure... but I believe that pistol rounds are not consider in this document because they are not primary weapons... the side arm is a measure of last resort in a war...I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4.... [/quote

Umm, unless the Infantry has changed radically in recent years, sidearms (pistols) are issued to Infantrymen whose primary weapon (i.e. machine gunner, sniper, and some members of the weapons platoon i.e. mortar) is not a rifle. That said, the majority of Infantrymen carry a rifle, but pistols are still issued to some depending on duty position.

]... again semantics... I should have injected the average/generally/SGt and above? or the anything but a rifleman? how about any one that doesn't carry a M4..... below the rank of sgt... I see where you got this oops my bad..... but I also know your just picking my statement apart... so have fun..

in your squad... how many carry a m4, with a side arm.. in your squad... how many riflemen are there? in your squad... a 5/7/9/10/11/12 man squad. how many carry side arms...

G26ster wrote:

67SS wrote:

G26ster wrote:

67SS wrote:

G26ster wrote:

67SS wrote:not sure... but I believe that pistol rounds are not consider in this document because they are not primary weapons... the side arm is a measure of last resort in a war...I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4....

Umm, unless the Infantry has changed radically in recent years, sidearms (pistols) are issued to Infantrymen whose primary weapon (i.e. machine gunner, sniper, and some members of the weapons platoon i.e. mortar) is not a rifle. That said, the majority of Infantrymen carry a rifle, but pistols are still issued to some depending on duty position.

correct... it is not a main battle weapon.. I dont fight my way with a 249 to retrieve a m9.. I use a m9 to fight my way to a 249.... if necessary....

Not sure what you mean here. The pistols issued to Infantrymen are not issued so they can fight their way to a rifle. It's the only personal defense weapon issued to them.

where are you going with this.. the M9 in not a standard issue, to everyone, only select few.. which is what I said in the beginning.... the M9 is not a main battle weapon...

so you whole argument is that Its for personal defense..(a measure of last resort) thanks for agreeing with me.. now back to bullets.

Where I was going with this was to dispute the part of your original post when you said, "I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4." This quote, on its face, is untrue. My point was that the Infantry IS issued a sidearm, even though it is to a select few. I never said it was a primary weapon issued to all Infantrymen. Also you used the analogy, "I dont fight my way with a 249 to retrieve a m9.. I use a m9 to fight my way to a 249.... if necessary...." So, my other point was that the sidearm issued to the "select few" is not to fight their way to a rifle, but rather for defense if needed. So your analogy of using a pistol to fight your way to your rifle has no relation to military combat.

I realize your main points were about ammunition statistics, but you made erroneous statements about Infantry sidearms and their purpose, and that's what I was addressing. If I have offended you, my apologies, but I am just speaking from my experience as an Infantryman.

ok.. in your squad... how many total members, of those members how many have side arms...of a standard squad... ... we are dealing with semantics.... yes its a standard issue of the army, no it is not issued to every one... This the exact point I was making... there are far more m4/a2 platforms issued than m9 sidearms..

G26ster wrote:

67SS wrote:

G26ster wrote:

67SS wrote:not sure... but I believe that pistol rounds are not consider in this document because they are not primary weapons... the side arm is a measure of last resort in a war...I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4....

Umm, unless the Infantry has changed radically in recent years, sidearms (pistols) are issued to Infantrymen whose primary weapon (i.e. machine gunner, sniper, and some members of the weapons platoon i.e. mortar) is not a rifle. That said, the majority of Infantrymen carry a rifle, but pistols are still issued to some depending on duty position.

correct... it is not a main battle weapon.. I dont fight my way with a 249 to retrieve a m9.. I use a m9 to fight my way to a 249.... if necessary....

Not sure what you mean here. The pistols issued to Infantrymen are not issued so they can fight their way to a rifle. It's the only personal defense weapon issued to them.

where are you going with this.. the M9 in not a standard issue, to everyone, only select few.. which is what I said in the beginning.... the M9 is not a main battle weapon...

so you whole argument is that Its for personal defense..(a measure of last resort) thanks for agreeing with me.. now back to bullets.

G26ster wrote:

67SS wrote:not sure... but I believe that pistol rounds are not consider in this document because they are not primary weapons... the side arm is a measure of last resort in a war...I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4....

Umm, unless the Infantry has changed radically in recent years, sidearms (pistols) are issued to Infantrymen whose primary weapon (i.e. machine gunner, sniper, and some members of the weapons platoon i.e. mortar) is not a rifle. That said, the majority of Infantrymen carry a rifle, but pistols are still issued to some depending on duty position.

correct... it is not a main battle weapon.. I dont fight my way with a 249 to retrieve a m9.. I use a m9 to fight my way to a 249.... if necessary....

lastly
Sunday, January 11, 2004

By Joseph L. Galloway
Knight Ridder Newspapers


FORT BELVOIR, Va. The U.S. military's only plant making small-arms ammunition is running at near capacity, 4 million rounds a day, and the United States still is forced to look overseas and to the recreational industry for ammunition for troops in Afghanistan and Iraq and those training to deploy there soon.

Gen. Paul Kern, commander of the Army Materiel Command, said Friday that giving those units priority ensured they had enough small-arms ammunition. "Everyone else will have to pay the price" and wait for it, he said.

The increased demand for ammunition for combat shooting and intensified training has made deep inroads in the nation's war reserves of ammunition, Kern said.

The sole plant making small-arms ammunition, the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant in Independence, Mo., is running three eight-hour shifts a day, six days a week. The plant provides 5.56 mm rifle, 7.62 mm and .50 caliber machine gun as well as 9 mm pistol cartridges for all branches of the military.

Because of the increased demand for ammunition since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and America's wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, Kern said the Army in late December let two supplemental contracts to Olin Winchester of East Alton, Ill., and Israeli Military Industries for each to produce 70 million rifle rounds per month starting in June.

The general said it would probably take until 2005 to get small-arms ammunition production to a level at which there will be enough to cover all the increased training needs and begin rebuilding the war reserves.

"We can't just go out and buy our ammunition commercially," Kern said. "We maintain very tight quality controls. Our ammo has to work, at 40 below zero or 140 degrees."

He said the Army has put an additional $225 million into small-arms ammunition production and additional armor for Humvees since the 9-11 attacks.

In addition to combat requirements, two other factors were driving the increased demand for ammunition: increased live-fire training for combat-service-support units and the fact that Reserves and National Guard were shooting as much as the active Army as they trained for deployment

ATK Awarded $8.5B Contract for Rifle Ammunition, Plant Operation
Posted by David J. Barton on Oct 5th, 2012 // No Comment

http://www.govconwire.com/2012/10/atk-w ... operation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

ATK (NYSE:ATK) has won a fixed-price contract with economic-price-adjustment worth up to $8,480,000,000 to provide small caliber rifle ammunition.
ATK is also expected to operate, maintain and modernize the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant.
Work is estimated to be completed by Sept. 30, 2022 and the location will be determined with each order.
Two bids were received for one bid solicited online.
The U.S. Army Contracting Command, Rock Island, Ill., is the contracting activity.

Previous ATK ammunition contract awards
ATK Wins $58M For Army Spider Munitions
ATK Wins $266M for Army Small Caliber Ammo
ATK Wins $68M for Army Ammo Cartridges
ATK Wins $2B Army Small Caliber Ammo Contract
ATK Wins $30M to Supply Afghan Security Forces with Non-Standard Ammunition

naw.. ATK has added and expanded production to keep up with war production.... wait till the pull out of Afgan..... DOD is restocking.. as they have depleted reserves...

October 13th, 2010

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... -in-idaho/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


http://www.atk.com/locations/small-cali ... ndence-mo/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Small Caliber Systems (Independence, Mo.)

ATK Small Caliber Systems is the proud operator of the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant in Independence, Mo., and the Defense Department’s primary source for military 5.56 mm, 7.62 mm and .50-caliber rifle ammunition. In the 12 years ATK has operated the plant, we have delivered more than 12 billion rounds, launched the revolutionary Enhanced Performance Round, and completed more than $370 million in modernization improvements to expand capacity and sustain the plant well into the future. Lake City Environmental Newsletter

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/49294740/ns/t ... SBklB04t8E" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
10/4/2012 ATK wins $8.4 billion U.S. Army ammunition plant contract: Pentagon

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Alliant Techsystems Inc has won a contract valued at up to $8.4 billion to supply small-caliber ammunition to the U.S. Army and continue operating the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant in Independence, Missouri, the Pentagon announced on Thursday.
The fixed-price contract runs through September 30, 2022, the Pentagon said in its daily digest of major contracts.
On Monday, ATK announced it had been selected to provide the ammunition and manage the Lake City plant, but did not provide the value of the contract.
It said the deal included an initial seven-year contract and options for three additional years.

http://www.atk.com/news-releases/atk-be ... ion-plant/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
ATK Begins Medium Caliber Ammunition Integration Operations at Radford Army Ammunition Plant
September 20, 1999
ATK (Alliant Techsystems) (NYSE: ATK) said it has begun medium caliber ammunition load, assemble, and pack (LAP) operations at the Radford Army Ammunition Plant (RAAP) in Radford, Va. The operations previously were performed by ATK at the Joliet Army Ammunition Plant in Wilmington, Ill.


http://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/s ... ily34.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sep 10, 2010, 9:07am CDT UPDATED: Sep 10, 2010, 9:32am CDT
ATK will build $100M plant in Utah
AlliantTechsystems Inc. plans to invest $100 million to build a new manufacturing facility in Clearfield, Utah, a suburb of Salt Lake City, according to a report in the Salt Lake Tribune.


http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/314899" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Radford ammo plant to get $240 million upgrade
October 04, 2012
The plant's new manager, BAE Systems, could break ground on the three-year project next year.

for fun.. and because the have a tendency to go through and through.. wounding a second.... far more effective in warfare than JHP

not sure... but I believe that pistol rounds are not consider in this document because they are not primary weapons... the side arm is a measure of last resort in a war...I think primary because the infantry is not issued a sidearm (m9, sig,226, or 1911) rather a M4....

a young friend (scheduled for redeploy in 12/13) was a top gunner, he was loaded down.. m2 turret, 249 across his lap.. he was also the DM , he had not only his m4 but the 762 version as well. and a M9..... poor guy.. I love him tho.. a true hero in every respect... 27 years old... been in service since HS... his last trip.. brought him back with a a 762x39 hit on his back plate... he gave my his arm flag he wore when it happened.. I am so honored...

Little thing about the Army's small arms contract per year





http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/Se ... _ammo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

link above is a pretty good read....

I have a Nephew who is High level ICE....

No worries on bullets...