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I doubt anyone worries about what load you use. That is up to you. The point being that for the overwhelming majority of users, buckshot is the load of choice.

KD5NRH wrote: I have to wonder, given the relative popularity and availability of different buck sizes, if there's real evidence for that, or if the experts are working too much from theory and not enough from actual coroners' reports. Even finding #1 in many stores is a problem, but everybody's got 00, so I can't imagine most medical examiners have ever even seen a body hit with #1.

The slug is up last, so anybody who gets that was still present in my place after 4 loads of #4 fired from no more than 25 feet away. (Longest unobstructed line in the house.) At that point, some extra risk is justified IMO.

I can't speak for Dr. Roberts or the FBI Lab, but I suspect there is real world evidence. Also I'm not talking about 00 buck versus #1, but rather a proper buckshot load versus a slug. That latter issue has been settled for a long time. 00 buck is very effective and I feel comfortable using those loads, although I like the reduced recoil loadings.

You are correct about finding those Federal LE rounds. I have never seen them in a store. I bought a case from one of the online houses. GT Distributors usually has some. You might have to shop around.

You should read the link I posted so that you know what to expect from your gun/load combination.

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have any problems, providing you never have a BG in front of a window or door.

As for me, I figure I should select the ammo that is rated by experts to be the most effective fight stopper for humans. My shotgun runs Federal LE 132 #1 Buckshot for two reasons. First, it is rated the most effective fight stopper by the experts and second, because a large number of Law Enforcement agencies use it. I have a couple of slugs in a side saddle along with extra #1's, but in my situation I don't figure I'll ever need them.

The difference is the buckshot will over penetrate if you miss, or worst case, sometimes over penetrate a BG. The slug will over penetrate even with a center of mass hit - almost every time.

Deltaboy wrote:Slugs have put down every thing I shot them with from deer to bulls so I am fully assured those Remington 1oz hollow point rifled slugs will stop any 2 legged thing I shoot with them.

Slugs are powerful, no question. They are also much better penetrators than buckshot. That is, they shoot through a great many layers of things - like walls.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-t ... x-o-truth/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As long as you factor that very substantial penetration into your plan, they will work. You might be interested in this brief on the subject:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LeonCarr wrote:It is not about the wad penetrating the victim. Many victims have been killed by blunt force trauma with objects that never penetrate the victim. The fact is that direction of travel or wads, shotcups, etc. cannot be accurately predicted.

With all due respect to TAMs experience, being struck in the head with a piece of plastic moving 1600 fps can cause serious bodily injury or death. Yes it may be a one in a million type of thing, but there is still a risk of it happening and that has to be factored in.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

I would think some supporting documentation would be required here. Shot cups weigh next to nothing and decelerate far faster than any shot.

I also have seen quite a few people shot with shotguns. Perhaps the most telling evidence that disproves your theory are the people I have seen shot at almost point blank range (<10 feet) with various loads of birdshot. In each case they were hit by the wad, but I have yet to ever see anyone killed with birdshot. If the cup by itself were lethal, at least a few of these should have been. The shot is far more lethal than the wad.

Scientifically speaking. 12ga wads weigh around 30 grains and at 1600 fps develop 171 ft/lbs of energy. However the wad moving at that speed, due to its flower like shape and lack of mass, is more like a whiffle ball than a projectile. Deceleration is dramatic because the sectional density is extremely low.

There is a huge difference between the energy and wounding capability of blunt force trauma caused by something like a hammer compared to the shot cup of a shotgun.