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carlson1 wrote:Every class I have attended - there has always been someone that knows more than the instructor I never could figure out why they did not have their OWN CLASS.

Yes, and it tends to make the class very tedious. Whether I feel I know more or not I always sit quietly and do it the way I am being instructed. My CHL class had a lot of wasted time by the commando lawyer wannabes that kept piping in with their comments.

CompVest wrote:

G.C.Montgomery wrote:I'm sure there are other instructors who are just as insulted but aren't going to dignify it with a response.

+1

I didnt insult anyone. I have never insulted anyone on this board or their profession. Nothing to +1 about. If I implied an insult, please accept my apologies.

I conceded to your point that you dont think an instructor would teach Con 2 is safe and now you say they might? I have not attended any such classes except in the military but agreed with you in point because i have no idea about what is taught. But I do read a lot, way more than average and have never seen any book or article recommend that mode. They never say why, just repeat the same old mantras. I am agreeing with you and you still take offense. I only, and always, speak from my own experience or research. I am very neutral on most subjects and let the facts tell the story. Con 1 may be the better mode but my experience, for me, tells me otherwise. But I am always open to new info and am not set on anything in particular with regards to carry. You, TXI, Stephen R, etc are all very informative and I have learned a lot from yall but I simply dont agree here. You wrote "Now, please show me one instructor who actually recommends and uses Condition 2. And if you’ve got one, please invite him to the next CHL Forum Day.
". The implication was no one taught it that way. If I was wrong in that implication I do apologize.

I agree it wont work well with a wounded gun hand. I dont see any way to fix that either. i am not determined at all and would love to find new ways to do things. I just dont like Con 1 carry on a daily basis because I have personally witnessed factory sears fail, safetys break and come down off safe, etc. If I have to go into a known bad situation then i would go Con 1 without a doubt but back to Con 2 when safety permits. I am not stubborn or stuck in my ways but I like proof and experience over conjecture and emotion. Very few here believe in Con 2 therefore dont test it, try it or practice with it so their opinions are based on theory and others opinions. I am one who likes to see for myself and test things like this out.
I do need to practice cross draw, weak draw, etc. Thanks for reminding me.

G.C.Montgomery wrote:
Proof of concept comes from attempting to apply said concept in the real world under a variety of conditions. RM9792 said of Condition 2, “If it is slower it is by milliseconds…� That says to me he has never actually tested the concept to prove it one way or the other. Even if he has tested it this method, I have little use for a system in which safety hinges on the availability of two hands. There is a good chance that you might not have two hands available to you before, during or after a defensive shooting. Further, we always say the key to any system is proper training…Fine. Now, please show me one instructor who actually recommends and uses Condition 2. And if you’ve got one, please invite him to the next CHL Forum Day.

I am willing to let this horse die as well. But I want to correct quotes attributed to me. I did say i have practiced both methods for years and neither is demonstrably faster. When I made the milliseconds comment I was conceding that Con 1 may be faster and will agree to that. So the concept has been and continues to be tested by me. YMMV. Safety will never hinge on two hands before, during or after a defensive shooting, I never stated that. The only time 2 hands were required was in the safety of my bedroom when I loaded, charged, and safely lowered the hammer down while pointing in a safe direction. Before a shooting only 1 hand is required to draw and cock the pistol, during is obvious and afterwards you are free to Con 1 the gun and holster till later, all while your weak hand is in your pocket or wherever.
I will concede that no instructor on the planet advises Con2 because they all teach as they have been taught and adhere to the established doctrine, same with LEO and other professionals. Even if one did think it was better he would never teach it as he would open himself up the ridicule and bashing I have. Generations have not tested Con2 IMO because they have all been taught 1 is the best and no one has told me why up to this point. I have only heard because Cooper says so and no statistical data to back up Con 2 being unsafe.

O6nop wrote:Personally, I don't see how you can cock the hammer on a 1911 with one hand, the beavertail gets in the way. I may be uncoordinated but I did try it with an unloaded gun. The angle also makes it difficult to do that. Being an uncoordinated movement, it's possible to accidentally put your finger on the trigger while pulling the hammer back thereby causing a discharge. The presence of the beavertail, to me, makes this action difficult and I would never reccommend it.

The other issue, dropping the hammer on a live round is a bad habit in my mind, but that's just me.

How could you possibly pul the trigger while thumbing the hammer? Grip safety. If your thumb is up on the hammer then you cant be pushing in on the grip safety. You are correct it is a very akward movement if already drawn and pointed. Try it with it in the holster and the trigger is still covered. Your hand is in an unnatural position of being over the pistol. As you are drawing you are also placing the thumb on the hammer and pulling down while pistol is coming up into play. Once the pistol is in front and coming on target your hand is getting into position with finger alongside the trigger guard in a ready position. This does require practice (lots) to perform smoothly, strong hands and a large grip.

Never drop a hammer on a live round unless you want to fire. You gently lower into place, I said gently, firm grip, no thumbing like a movie actor, use two hands.

Most on this forum seem to be of the opinion that Condition 2 shouldnt exist. I prefer that mode but happily respect their opinions. You arent going to change any minds as this mindset is decades old. I think both 1 and 2 have their place and for me everyday ccw is Con 2 and with practice is every bit as fast as 1. Con 3 is truly unsafe in a defensive situation and I was shown that a while back and quit carrying that way. Condition 1 may come to ready a literal split second faster but in reality is inconsequential to me. Browning isnt here to ask and while Cooper was well deserving of his reputation he cant speak for everyone and was not right all the time.

I would like to know what Browning had to say about carry methods. Cooper has his opinions like everyone else and I will not even begin to argue with him but he may have differed from Brownings intent. With a FPB like the Kimbers, Condition 2 is safe from all AD's.

I never understood that either in the military. We were in a hot zone in the ME and while we had ammo, we couldnt load up or fire until fired upon and if possible got approval first. In several instances we were being shipped around and had nothing but M16 clubs and harsh language as a defense since they wouldnt issue out ammo.

You safely lower it by pointing in a safe direction, using two hands and paying attention to what you are doing. I never shot that way in IDPA because it is against the rules. I practice both ways and it is not slow. I didnt mean I competed that way earlier, was a mistake on my part. If it is slower it is by milliseconds and if you have that little time you are screwed anyway.
Again, why is it any more dangerous if it is performed with safety in mind? It is a lever with at most a 20# spring I can hold back with a pinkie. No cites or stats here, all I see is parroting and emotion. Compared to the number of AD's i have read about it is inconsequential. i do this maybe twice a year when i clean it. I dont compete with my ccw, I use another 1911 that I have no need to condition 2 with. Like I said earlier, everyone is convinced it is unsafe yet there no reasons given why. Many actions are unsafe with guns yet we take steps to make it safe as I have done. I would be more worried about a slamfire or booger hooker on the trigger than a slow, deliberate, careful lowering of the hammer.
No one is going to change their mind here but that doesnt mean either side is right or wrong. Just a difference of opinion.
Safety is relative and almost any action can be performed safely with proper training and precautions.

I have had a car accident, better not drive anymore either. Who exactly says it is unsafe? I think 30 years of empirical evidence is plenty for me. With MIM being used so much today and poor QC I just dont trust safeties to not fail or sears to crack or slip. I think this "unsafe" business is urban legend or a theory that just wont die.
I always value your opinion on things TXI but I will have to friendly disagree on this without some proof it is unsafe. Kinda like the "dropping on the barrel" so many grabbers are worried about. Sure it can happen but is it really that common? More people have probably been shot from reholstering a Glock than dropping on the barrel.

Thats one of the bones of contention here. I point in a safe direction, grasp the hammer firmly with my left thumb and forefinger, then squeeze the trigger with my right hand. I have been doing this with guns for over 30 years and had only one ever slip, but my hands were sweaty and it was the tiny hammer on a desert eagle. I was pointed to the ground in a safe direction though. I dont "cowboy" it with the same hand or anything so to me it is perfectly safe. Considering my ccw was cleaned/loaded 4 months ago and hasnt been unloaded since i only had to do this once in the last year. Why is this any different than lowering the hammer on a revolver or a DA pistol? I just dont agree that it is unsafe if done properly. I prefer hammer down simply because I feel safer, and in my case I am the same on the draw. I used to carry empty chamber but you guys convinced me it was unsafe in a bad situation.

If you have at least a few pounds of pressure on holding back the hammer and it does slip then it likely will be a light strike and not fire. But if it does you had it pointed in a safe manner, right?

Most will disagree but I carry my 1911's hot with hammer down. I have practiced and shot IDPA condition one and hammer down and found no difference either way in speed. With a spur hammer you have plenty of surface area to thumb back on the draw (finger off trigger till ready). I have large hands so my fingers get a good grip on the pistol so my thumb is free to pull the hammer as i am clearing the holster. Just another idea for you.