TexasCHLforum.com

KBCraig wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:

Show Killer wrote:
Thank You, this is exactly what i'm thinking.

I did not draw, brandish or threaten to use deadly force. I highly doubt the guy even knew I was carrying. In this situation I was merely preparing to draw had the guy continued his approach and actually attacked me.

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Again, you cannot draw on someone who "attacks" you, unless the attack is with deadly force or attempted deadly force.

Again, blows about the head are deadly force, particularly when accompanied by a disparity of size and strength.

Show Killer wrote:
Thank You, this is exactly what i'm thinking.

I did not draw, brandish or threaten to use deadly force. I highly doubt the guy even knew I was carrying. In this situation I was merely preparing to draw had the guy continued his approach and actually attacked me.

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JohnKSa wrote:
txinvestigator,

It becomes terribly unwieldy to type "an attack qualifying for the use of force or the threat of deadly force" every single time. The attack has been well defined as an open-handed slap (or possibly a series of open-handed slaps) and that's what I'm referring to. You are correct that attack is far too generic to be used unless everyone understands what is being referred to.

one eyed fatman wrote:

Show Killer wrote:

JohnKSa wrote: The legal use of force and deadly force are to allow you to PREVENT and PROTECT. Both of those are about stopping something from happening--NOT about retaliating for something that has ALREADY happened.

So, let's go back to my original post that started this thread.

The guy was walking back to my truck, I prepared to draw by gripping my pistol. Had the guy made it to my vehicle and started pounding on the glass I could've drawn down on him, right? I mean, at this point I don't know what his intentions are. Maybe he wants to do me bodily harm, maybe not. By drawing down on him I would be PREVENTING a possible attack. Would I have been in the wrong? Up till now all he would've done was assault my truck, not me.

If I gotta take a face slapping you gotta take someone beating on your window. With that said I also gotta say BULLTORK! If you can't at least pull your weapon to stop a possible attack against you then the law is not on our side. The reason we have trouble understanding the law is because the law is on the side of the lawyers. They want money, they create vague laws, they get to take you to court. That's what it's really about.

Kyle Brown wrote:

JohnKSa wrote:Shooting someone, or even drawing on someone in response to getting slapped is extremely likely to result in sucessful prosecution of the person with the gun.

There are two CHL cases that I am aware of where someone has shot someone in response to an unarmed assault.

In the one case I am more familiar with, the CHL holder's injuries included severe concussion and permanent hearing loss. Yet he was STILL criminally prosecuted and might have been convicted had he not hired a good lawyer. What eventually made up the juror's minds is not absolutely clear, but the fact that the defender was quite small and the attacker was quite large probably played an important part--autopsy photographs of the attacker showing his impressive size and musculature and a "Born to Kill" tattoo were probably the clincher.

In the second case, the CHL holder took what was described as a "severe beating".

BOTH cases definitely resulted in criminal prosecution in spite of the fact that CHL holder was severely injured.

There are certainly cases where drawing on, or possibly even shooting an unarmed person who is attacking you in public** makes good sense, but it is important to understand that if you shoot in such a situation, criminal prosecution is a certainty. If you have sustained no injuries, and there is no obvious disparity of force (multiple attackers to one defender, large, fit attacker vs small, disabled defender, large male vs small female) then the prosecution is going to be successful.

Remember that you and your lawyer will have to convince a jury that what you did was reasonable and immediately necessary to prevent serious injury or death. That is the ONLY legal justification for using deadly force.

IMO, getting slapped is not justification for drawing on a person, and it is certainly not justification for shooting. Here's my reasoning. If a person has the chance to hit you in the face and they choose to make that blow an open-handed slap rather than a punch, that would almost certainly be viewed by a reasonable person as evidence that severe injury was not the goal of the slapper. If you can't convince a jury that the person was intent on severe injury then you won't be able to convince them that it was legal for you to threaten or use deadly force.

At that point, the thing to do is to withdraw from the confrontation and call the police. With witnessess, you are going to be able to get a criminal and very likely a civil judgement against the slapper. If you choose to pull a gun, the tables are turned and now you're the one likely to be facing criminal charges and civil prosecution.

So, i should just resolve myself to be slapped by some punk?

Your gun is there to defend your life, NOT your honor. You have a legal right not to be slapped--if you are, you can have the slapper prosecuted. But since there is no threat of severe injury or death, that "right not to be slapped" doesn't extend to a justification for you to use or threaten deadly force.

** Note that shooting an unarmed attacker who has broken into your own home is a totally different situation in legal terms. Since this is primarily about CHL specific shootings, my comments relate to things happening in public vs shooting a home invader.

If you are justified in the use of force but not deadly force, then you are justified, per TPC 9.04, in the threat of deadly force (which is not the use of deadly force). If someone slaps you, in most cases, you would be justified in the use of force but not deadly force. Therefore, if you are justified in the use of force after the slap, then you are justified in the threat of deadly force per 9.04.

JohnKSa wrote:Your gun is there to defend your life, NOT your honor.

lrb111 wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:
There is no need for all of that. If you don't know the definition of deadly force, you should not be carrying.

So, i should just resolve myself to be slapped by some punk? I would hope my conflict resolution skills would be up to par.
Any suggestions toward resolutions are always appreciated.

stevie_d_64 wrote: Not if you have a good lawyer...

Zha-Zha Gabor got off for slapping an LEO in the face...She took the ride, but she got off pretty light if I recall correctly...

one eyed fatman wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:

one eyed fatman wrote:

am with Flintknapper here.........a person threatening you with non-deadly force does not justify you to use deadly force, and in most cases would not justify threatening to use deadly force as per TPC 9.04.

And what is non-deadly force? Do I dig out and start reading my book of rules while being threatened or hit in the face? If someone gets out of their car and says I'm going to kill you is that non-deadly force? Face it, if you get into a situation your going to have to figure out on your own if it's non-deadly force or not. Good luck to everyone of us on that one.

The penal code STATES that Force is not justified in response to verbal provication alone. Non deadly force os force that is not capable of causing serious bodily injury or death.

Hit in the face? If I slap you across the face are you going to shoot me?[/quote]

Pretty damn good chance. You would see a gun in your face.

lrb111 wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:
Hit in the face? If I slap you across the face are you going to shoot me?

Suppose i am female and get slapped. Is this the first act of an abduction, a rape, a severe beating?
Of course many things could follow if I were male, too.
It is also possible that many CHLs are of an age that they no longerr have the high levels of testosterone, to "Take a butt whipping".

I sure wish my peeps at the "Psychic Friends network" would get out of prison, so they could tell me when to defend myself or loved ones.

nitrogen wrote:Amazing.



Anyone ever tried to call the police on someone that's road raged them, or even for some road rage that you see on the highway that doesn't even involve you?

Ever get the police to do something about it?

one eyed fatman wrote:

am with Flintknapper here.........a person threatening you with non-deadly force does not justify you to use deadly force, and in most cases would not justify threatening to use deadly force as per TPC 9.04.

And what is non-deadly force? Do I dig out and start reading my book of rules while being threatened or hit in the face? If someone gets out of their car and says I'm going to kill you is that non-deadly force? Face it, if you get into a situation your going to have to figure out on your own if it's non-deadly force or not. Good luck to everyone of us on that one.

nitrogen wrote:
Had he run me off the road, I probably would have jumped out of my car and drawn on him. If he had gotten out of his car at all, and made any agressive move at all, i'd have put 2 center mass and one in the head without even a thought.

jbirds1210 wrote: I would love to use your scenario to ask the forum a question. I understand that we all have a duty to protect ourselves from attack, that is clear to me!

If we are in our vehicle in a similar situation ,don't we currently have a duty to retreat? It is my understanding that it is mandatory to attempt removing ourselves from the situation. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Show Killer wrote:So, I was cruising along in the right hand lane and this guy in a GMC Jimmy starts cutting over into my lane and was about to hit the drivers side front of the truck. I tap the horn to let him know i was there and he corrects. Then he speeds up to get in front of me. We get stopped at a red light, he opens his door, leans out and starts saying stuff. I just pointed to him in a "just stay in your truck" kind of manner. Well, that made him pretty mad. He gets completely out of his truck and starts walking back towards me. I lean forward and grab the pistol grip of my trusty Glock 30 (it was IWB @ about 3:30) and prepare to draw. The guy gets about 3 steps and then stops. The light had turned green and everyone behind me was honking at him. He just turned around and got back in his truck.

I just don't understand some people. This all happened at 3:00 in the afternoon going south on 281 at the Encino Rio Blvd. light.

I've had my CHL for going on 4 years and it's the 1st time i've had to prepare to actually draw down on someone.