TexasCHLforum.com

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

1TallTXn wrote:Personally, I avoid school buildings. I work at a Private University and its annoying to disarm before coming into work, but thats the rule.

I'm really not sure what the legal point is. Kalrog, your points seem valid to me, but TXI also makes a lot of sense...

charles ?

I was staying out of this one, because it deals with my definition of premises, so I'm hardly unbiased on this one. But, here's my take on it.

This will be more in the nature of history lesson than anything else, but the definition of “premises� is the one I submitted to Rep. Carter and Senator Patterson. (Former AG Morales even referenced it in one of his AG Opinions.) When SB60 passed in 1995, the term “premises� wasn’t statutorily defined in the Penal Code. Therefore, I was concerned that the courts would look to case law to determine the scope of the term. Cases under the Alcoholic Beverage Code defined “premises� to include everything on the real estate. In fact, if a shopping center contains a store that sells alcohol, the entire parking lot is part of the “premises.�

For this reason, I argued for a statutory definition of “premises� and provided the suggested language. This language was adopted in an amendment and became part of the version of SB60 that passed. During all of our discussions, it was understood that the reason for the phrase “or portion of a building� was to prevent the use of a broom closet by a court as a grounds for making the entire building off-limits. Very little time was spent on this portion of the definition, as it was believed this would not be an issue, since the entire tenor of the definition is limiting rather than expansive in nature.

Unfortunately, this has become an issue and some cities are doing precisely what the phrase was intended to prevent. Look for a clarification to be proposed in 2007 - one that will include not only this issue, but a further clarification to issues related to schools.

Regards,
Chas.

Kalrog wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:

Kalrog wrote:

aguyindallas wrote:It is named "xxxxx xxxxx" Private School and Care.

According to their website, they have Private Kindergarden, so that pretty much makes it an educational facility/school.

Only the portion of the building being used as a school (Kindergarden). The day care portions of the building are still open to you.

On what do you base that? 46.03 states;



(1) on the physical premises of a school or educational
institution, any grounds or building on which an activity sponsored by
a school or educational institution is being conducted,

It is not indicate that in only includes "the portion or specific area of the premises", etc.

This was something that we went over a while back on this forum and there was a section in there that mentioned building or portion of a building... that is why the person who shared a building with a school (rental property for both of them) could carry to his office and to the bathroom as well since it wasn't part of the school but a different portion of the building. This is one of those things that has changed since the original passage of the law and I am searching for it now. I'll edit and update this post when I have that for you.


*EDIT*
Found what I was looking for. Check section 46.035 for the definition of premises.

46.035 (f) (3) ""Premises" means a building or a portion of a
building. The term does not include any public or private driveway,
street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other
parking area."

*EDIT2*
Oh, and check 46.03 (c) (1) to see that it uses the definition of premises as defined above.

pastor1 wrote:No, indeed, privite schools are not accredited by TEA. That's why private secondary schools are not required to administer the TAKS test to their students. They are not accredited by the state and thus don't get funding by the state. They are, however, considered a privite educational facility and thus concealed carry there or on their transportation vehicles is a felony. The Texas concealed handgun laws do not delve into the issue of what it defines as a school or educational institution but the Texas Eduaction Agency does, which is the state governing entity of all public schools. Day care facilities are goverened by the state but are not considered an educational facility and thus concealed carry there or on their vehicles is not illegal. If this were not true, then you would have to take your gun off when you pick up your kids from a day care that's also a privite home. This type of place must be licensed by the state but is not, repeat not, considered a school by the state. Of course, if they have signage (30.06) or have given verbal communication that weapons are not to be carried there then it becomes a trespass issue. I researched this issue by going to the state attorney general's opinions and by calling the DPS yesterday. I'm a teacher and a pastor at a church with a day care. So this issue has been quite important to me. As to asking a trooper about the issue, I did. One attends our church and told me he believes that if you keep your weapon in your vehicle in the school parking lot, you've broken state law. He was wrong. By the way, I really enjoy discussing these issues with ya'll. I'm not a "know it all" by any means and I apologize if I appear to be one. If I'm wrong on any point please correct me.

Kalrog wrote:

aguyindallas wrote:It is named "xxxxx xxxxx" Private School and Care.

According to their website, they have Private Kindergarden, so that pretty much makes it an educational facility/school.

Only the portion of the building being used as a school (Kindergarden). The day care portions of the building are still open to you.

aguyindallas wrote:I too am concerned about the Day Care/Private School situation.

So, PLEASE correct me if I am wrong:

1. Day Care Centers are NOT off limits to CHL holders unless properly posted...correct?

2. Private Schools are not governed by the TEA, therefore, NOT off limits to CHL holders unless properly posted...correct?

My daycare IS what I "think" also a "Private School" so I need to be 1000000% sure about this.

Advice guys.....?

bauerdj wrote:Just a thought with NOTHING to back it up, but the key here might be who has control of the premises. I think this may favor the rentor.

Dave B.

hmb wrote:Most resedential leases allow the owner to enter the premises at certain times and for certain reasons, such as inspection of the property or putting the property up for sale. Other than that, the renter has the right to be safe in his own (rented) house and the landlord is prohibited from barging in at all hours of the day and night. You could not invite a gang of friends over to the rented property and have a big cookout in the back yard, just because you own the property. Likewise, even though you own the property, because the law recognizes that the renter has a greater interest in the property (I think we used to say the "right of quiet possession,"), I believe you cannot carry concealed without the renter's permission.

barres wrote:I'm sorry; I got in a hurry when typing the second question. I know I cannot carry when not on my property now. I meant to ask about the home care referring to once I get my CHL (which will hopefully be soon).

As regards question one, that is how I understood the law, but wanted more informed opinions. Now what would happen if my tennant asked me not to carry there? I assume that my ownership of the premises would trump their request to be unarmed, but what say you?

barres wrote: I would think that I can carry there regardless of the fact that I do not yet have my CHL, but what say you who are more versed in the law?

.

barres wrote:First question isn't strickly about CHL, but property rights, I guess. I own a rental home. I understand that the tenants are allowed to carry on the property in whatever fashion they please, but can I? I retain ownership and, to a degree, control of the property, but I do not live there. I would think that I can carry there regardless of the fact that I do not yet have my CHL, but what say you who are more versed in the law?

Second is my son's care facility. A woman from my church keeps a handful of kids in her home. It is registered as a home care facility with the state DCFS (or whatever they call it), but it is her home, as well. Is her home barred when I drop my son off and pick him up as a school? What if I visit her for reasons other than her home care?

Thank you for any input you guys can give me.