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The Annoyed Man wrote:I would HAVE to say/do something. NOT doing anything is out of the question for me. The only question is, how do I do something in a way that protects ME from legal liability, while still effecting relief for the tortured animal?

I think those of us who take carrying a firearm seriously, by which I mean basically everyone on this forum, tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to the whole provocation thing. Sometimes I think we may even take it for something it isn't. The carrying of a firearm does not legally prevent us from speaking our minds or saying things that others may not like to hear. It does not prevent us from admonishing those we see doing something wrong. It does not prevent us from having arguments. It doesn't even prevent us from getting angry and shouting at someone. We can do all of these things and not give up our justification for defending ourselves, because none of these things constitutes provoking someone to violence. Starting a confrontation, saying things like "why don't you make me" or "come at me, bro," spewing racial slurs, threatening violence, these types of things are inciting violence and would keep you from being justified in acting in self defense. Telling some thugs to stop torturing a turtle and saying you're calling the cops is not inciting violence. Calling them thugs and berating them is not, to the best of my understanding, cause for losing your right to defend yourself if they attack you. Basically, if your speech is not in and of itself unjustified, hate speech, or inviting violence, I think you are okay defending yourself should the need arise.

I'm not advocating against deescalation. I've been practicing deescalation for much longer than I've been carrying a firearm. Talking people down and just taking myself out of bad situations has served me very well for my whole life, and I'm not about to change tactics. Carrying a gun isn't a license to be a jerk. However, it doesn't preclude our intervening verbally if we see something bad happening. I'm sure some armchair lawyer will point out that the law doesn't define just what constitutes provocation or something about fighting words or crusading DAs, but I think a plain reading of the law supports my view. I also haven't seen any case law to support the idea that exercising your 2nd amendment rights means giving up your 1st amendment rights. As always, though, I'm not a lawyer, and I'm often wrong about a variety of things. I wouldn't say what I'm saying if I didn't think it had value, and I'll admit I'm wrong if I am conclusively shown to be.

The Annoyed Man wrote:

LucasMcCain wrote:I see kids torturing an animal, I'm going to tell them to stop and give them a lecture on our responsibilities as good stewards of the creation with which God has entrusted us. I would not assume that they would turn their violence on me. If they do, they will find themselves regretting that poor life decision. Regardless, calling the cops first and getting the entire interaction on video are good ideas that might or might not occur to me in the moment of shock that I would experience upon finding children torturing something as defenseless and nonthreatening as a sea turtle. I would most definitely not involve my firearm in the conversation unless attacked.

You're absolutely right when it comes to children. But these perps were 16, 18, and 23. Maybe the 16 year old gets some slack from me, and the 18 year old, if he immediately acknowledges the wrong and stops. But the 23 year old? That's a broken toy with a bent soul, and absolutely a dangerous personality. When my son was 23, he had already bought his first house, was a reliable employee, and got himself married. Now, my son had a stable home life growing up, with two parents committed to their marriage. I'll grant that this guy might have had a rough background or some other excuse, but hey....... at 23, you ARE old enough to know better. If you're torturing animals at age 23, you need a psychiatric evaluation and some meds. That makes you a dangerous person.

That's why after reading the article, I thought about the legalities of drawing first and then ordered them to stop, versus simply having my hand near my gun. I know the legalities would have been at best marginal, but I compare it to stumbling upon a mountain lion in the woods. Maybe the cat backs off and leaves; maybe it stands its ground, bluffs you, and lets you back off and leave; or..... maybe it decides to charge you. I don't want to wait to draw my gun until it begins its charge because then it's too late. That dude was like a wild predatory animal.

I understand what the law says. I was more interested in what y'alls reactions would be......whether your instincts would be the same as mine, or if you would be less "engaged" I guess is the word I'd use.

I missed that one was 23. I was in a hurry and just skimmed the article. I thought they were all teens. Not that teens shouldn't know better as well, and not that there aren't plenty of teens that could easily take me in a fight, especially 3 to 1. I still don't think I would draw on them first, but my hand would probably be on my gun. Come down to it, I really don't know if I would try to intervene or just be a good witness. As someone else mentioned, if I came on the scene when they were beating the vet, I would not hesitate to become involved, and it would probably involve shooting.

Thanks for bringing this case up. It's useful to think about situations where someone might be doing something morally reprehensible but not necessarily illegal, or even something illegal but not bad enough to justify use of deadly force. The more we go through these what-ifs in advance, the better our chances of reacting the right way if thrown into a similar situation.

I see kids torturing an animal, I'm going to tell them to stop and give them a lecture on our responsibilities as good stewards of the creation with which God has entrusted us. I would not assume that they would turn their violence on me. If they do, they will find themselves regretting that poor life decision. Regardless, calling the cops first and getting the entire interaction on video are good ideas that might or might not occur to me in the moment of shock that I would experience upon finding children torturing something as defenseless and nonthreatening as a sea turtle. I would most definitely not involve my firearm in the conversation unless attacked.