Again, blows about the head are deadly force, particularly when accompanied by a disparity of size and strength.txinvestigator wrote:Again, you cannot draw on someone who "attacks" you, unless the attack is with deadly force or attempted deadly force.Show Killer wrote:
Thank You, this is exactly what i'm thinking.
I did not draw, brandish or threaten to use deadly force. I highly doubt the guy even knew I was carrying. In this situation I was merely preparing to draw had the guy continued his approach and actually attacked me.
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Return to “Almost had to draw on someone today.”
- Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:44 am
- Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
- Topic: Almost had to draw on someone today.
- Replies: 104
- Views: 20884
- Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:32 am
- Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
- Topic: Almost had to draw on someone today.
- Replies: 104
- Views: 20884
The original post in this thread was not about a "single slap to the face", nor even a series of slaps, nor slapping at all. It was about a road rage incident, where the poster was boxed in by traffic and confronted by an angry driver, heading his way and visibly in a state of rage.
Anyone who wouldn't escalate to Orange+ in that situation, and prepare to draw if necessary, is a fool.
Instead of answering the situation as presented, the argument has devolved into hypotheticals. One side is arguing situations where they obviously feel justified to use deadly force, while the other side is making a strawman argument against shooting someone in retaliation for a foppish, insulting slap.
I think it's insulting to reasonable adults to harp on retaliation versus prevention. I don't believe that anyone amongst us would shoot someone in the back who had delivered a slap across the face and then turned to leave. Nor even a punch to the face or blow to the head, if the assailant was turning and leaving.
JohnKSa spoke well about the difference between prevention and retaliation, but this thread did not start out about retaliation at all.
Ask Gordon Hale how many blows to the head is too many. Ask him if it's unreasonable to prepare to use DF when confronted by a visibly angry, huge muscular Samoan while blocked in by traffic on all sides.
The key word in this thread was prepare. Not "draw", not "brandish", not "threaten to use deadly force". No, it was about preparing to use deadly force if necessary in a quickly escalating situation.
Thankfully, traffic conditions allowed the situation to de-escalate quickly.
In the situation as presented in the original post, I'd have prepared to draw too. Anyone who wouldn't prepare is hopelessly in Condition White.
Kevin
Anyone who wouldn't escalate to Orange+ in that situation, and prepare to draw if necessary, is a fool.
Instead of answering the situation as presented, the argument has devolved into hypotheticals. One side is arguing situations where they obviously feel justified to use deadly force, while the other side is making a strawman argument against shooting someone in retaliation for a foppish, insulting slap.
I think it's insulting to reasonable adults to harp on retaliation versus prevention. I don't believe that anyone amongst us would shoot someone in the back who had delivered a slap across the face and then turned to leave. Nor even a punch to the face or blow to the head, if the assailant was turning and leaving.
JohnKSa spoke well about the difference between prevention and retaliation, but this thread did not start out about retaliation at all.
Ask Gordon Hale how many blows to the head is too many. Ask him if it's unreasonable to prepare to use DF when confronted by a visibly angry, huge muscular Samoan while blocked in by traffic on all sides.
The key word in this thread was prepare. Not "draw", not "brandish", not "threaten to use deadly force". No, it was about preparing to use deadly force if necessary in a quickly escalating situation.
Thankfully, traffic conditions allowed the situation to de-escalate quickly.
In the situation as presented in the original post, I'd have prepared to draw too. Anyone who wouldn't prepare is hopelessly in Condition White.
Kevin
- Sat Apr 01, 2006 1:24 am
- Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
- Topic: Almost had to draw on someone today.
- Replies: 104
- Views: 20884
This was the Gordon Hale case, in February 1996. Mr. Hale was the first CHL to use deadly force, the first to be arrest, first to be charged with murder, and the first to be no-billed by the grand jury.
The case re-affirmed established case law, that blows about the head and face constitute deadly force and justify deadly force in response.
Here's a Houston Chronicle article that sums it up well:
1:04 PM 3/20/1996
Licensed owner of concealed gun cleared in death
Dallas panel nobills driver who shot another in argument
By JIM SCHUTZE
Copyright 1996 Houston Chronicle Dallas Bureau
DALLAS -- A grand jury voted Wednesday not to indict the first Texan to shoot and kill someone with his licensed concealed handgun.
The Dallas County grand jury ruled that Gordon Hale III, 42, of suburban Grand Prairie committed no crime Feb. 21 when he shot and killed Kenny Tavai, 33, an unarmed delivery truck driver during an argument in heavy freeway traffic. It was the first fatal shooting under the state's new law that allows ordinary citizens to become licensed to carry a concealed handgun.
Within hours of Wednesday's decision, the principal legislative architect of the so-called right-to-carry legislation had fired off an angry press release castigating critics who had used the Tavai killing to attack the new law.
"I am disgusted ... by the initial reaction to this incident by opponents of the concealed handgun law," said state Sen. Jerry Patterson, R-Pasadena. In his written statement, Patterson specifically accused state Sen. Rodney Ellis, D-Houston, of having used the Tavai killing as a vehicle for his opposition to the gun law.
"The `I told you so' crowd was wrong once again," Patterson said. "Their ignorance of the laws of deadly force is apparent."
Ellis fired back with his own emotional written statement.
"I care about this issue because gun violence is a serious threat to the safety of the people of Texas," he said in part.
"I am worried about the safety of my 8-year-old daughter, Nicole. In 1994, approximately 1,500 Texans were killed as a result of gun violence, and I simply do not believe that more guns on the streets will make my daughter safer," Ellis said.
Members of the victim's family could not be reached for comment. Tavai's relatives were angry over the shooting when it happened and told reporters at the time that they believed Dallas police did the right thing by bringing homicide charges against Hale.
Police arrested Hale after the shooting because they believed the altercation between Hale and Tavai had not justified the use of deadly force. A spokesman said Dallas Police Chief Ben Click would have no comment on the grand jury finding Wednesday.
The shooting of Tavai, following an incident in which the rear-view mirrors of vehicles driven by the two men clicked together in tight traffic, drew immediate national attention.
Hale, who works for a welding supply company, obtained one of the new concealed weapon permits because his job requires him to drive a truck carrying expensive equipment all over the Dallas area, according to his lawyer, Vincent W. Perini.
The incident occurred when trucks driven by the two men tapped lightly against each other in traffic on a crowded freeway in west Dallas. According to witnesses, Tavai left his own delivery vehicle and confronted Hale in his pickup. Tavai hit Hale one to three times in the face and shoulder, police said. Hale lifted a .40-caliber handgun from beneath a coat on the front seat of his pickup and shot Tavai once in the chest. Tavai died three hours later.
Hale's lawyer said Wednesday that the grand jury had taken special pains to examine all of the evidence and listen to all of the witnesses, going beyond normal grand jury practice.
"From my observation, the grand jury proceeded in the knowledge that this case was being watched and was receiving a lot of publicity, and so the grand jury and the district attorney took pains to do a good job," Perini said. He said the grand jury interviewed all of the witnesses who had seen the shooting happen in traffic.
Grand jury rules do not allow lawyers to argue in person before the grand jury, but Perini did send in a lengthy written argument -- acceptable practice in Dallas County. Perini included a statement from a forensic pathologist concerning the severe injury that can result from fist blows to the face. He said he also pointed out that Texas law on deadly force permits the use of deadly force to prevent serious bodily injury short of fatal injury.
"Hale was blocked in traffic on all sides," Perini said. "He had dropped back and was writing down Tavai's plates and his courtesy number, where you're supposed to call to report bad driving."
Perini said Tavai approached Hale, who was sitting behind the wheel of his pickup, and told him not to call the police or the courtesy number, then grabbed Hale by the front of his shirt and pulled him toward the open window while hitting him in the face.
"You can shoot to prevent serious bodily injury," Perini said. "You shouldn't have to decide, `Well, he's going to break my nose, knock my jaw out and detach my retina, but I don't think he'll kill me.' And you don't."
Hale declined to comment after the grand jury finding, but his father, Gordon Hale Jr., said he was overjoyed.
"We're elated," he said, speaking from his son's home. "I have always been a person who thought a man had a right to defend himself. My son was attacked illegally, and he acted to defend himself. He did the right thing."
The father said his son and his entire family were sorry that someone had to lose his life.
"A person is dead," he said, "and that's always too bad."
The case re-affirmed established case law, that blows about the head and face constitute deadly force and justify deadly force in response.
Here's a Houston Chronicle article that sums it up well:
1:04 PM 3/20/1996
Licensed owner of concealed gun cleared in death
Dallas panel nobills driver who shot another in argument
By JIM SCHUTZE
Copyright 1996 Houston Chronicle Dallas Bureau
DALLAS -- A grand jury voted Wednesday not to indict the first Texan to shoot and kill someone with his licensed concealed handgun.
The Dallas County grand jury ruled that Gordon Hale III, 42, of suburban Grand Prairie committed no crime Feb. 21 when he shot and killed Kenny Tavai, 33, an unarmed delivery truck driver during an argument in heavy freeway traffic. It was the first fatal shooting under the state's new law that allows ordinary citizens to become licensed to carry a concealed handgun.
Within hours of Wednesday's decision, the principal legislative architect of the so-called right-to-carry legislation had fired off an angry press release castigating critics who had used the Tavai killing to attack the new law.
"I am disgusted ... by the initial reaction to this incident by opponents of the concealed handgun law," said state Sen. Jerry Patterson, R-Pasadena. In his written statement, Patterson specifically accused state Sen. Rodney Ellis, D-Houston, of having used the Tavai killing as a vehicle for his opposition to the gun law.
"The `I told you so' crowd was wrong once again," Patterson said. "Their ignorance of the laws of deadly force is apparent."
Ellis fired back with his own emotional written statement.
"I care about this issue because gun violence is a serious threat to the safety of the people of Texas," he said in part.
"I am worried about the safety of my 8-year-old daughter, Nicole. In 1994, approximately 1,500 Texans were killed as a result of gun violence, and I simply do not believe that more guns on the streets will make my daughter safer," Ellis said.
Members of the victim's family could not be reached for comment. Tavai's relatives were angry over the shooting when it happened and told reporters at the time that they believed Dallas police did the right thing by bringing homicide charges against Hale.
Police arrested Hale after the shooting because they believed the altercation between Hale and Tavai had not justified the use of deadly force. A spokesman said Dallas Police Chief Ben Click would have no comment on the grand jury finding Wednesday.
The shooting of Tavai, following an incident in which the rear-view mirrors of vehicles driven by the two men clicked together in tight traffic, drew immediate national attention.
Hale, who works for a welding supply company, obtained one of the new concealed weapon permits because his job requires him to drive a truck carrying expensive equipment all over the Dallas area, according to his lawyer, Vincent W. Perini.
The incident occurred when trucks driven by the two men tapped lightly against each other in traffic on a crowded freeway in west Dallas. According to witnesses, Tavai left his own delivery vehicle and confronted Hale in his pickup. Tavai hit Hale one to three times in the face and shoulder, police said. Hale lifted a .40-caliber handgun from beneath a coat on the front seat of his pickup and shot Tavai once in the chest. Tavai died three hours later.
Hale's lawyer said Wednesday that the grand jury had taken special pains to examine all of the evidence and listen to all of the witnesses, going beyond normal grand jury practice.
"From my observation, the grand jury proceeded in the knowledge that this case was being watched and was receiving a lot of publicity, and so the grand jury and the district attorney took pains to do a good job," Perini said. He said the grand jury interviewed all of the witnesses who had seen the shooting happen in traffic.
Grand jury rules do not allow lawyers to argue in person before the grand jury, but Perini did send in a lengthy written argument -- acceptable practice in Dallas County. Perini included a statement from a forensic pathologist concerning the severe injury that can result from fist blows to the face. He said he also pointed out that Texas law on deadly force permits the use of deadly force to prevent serious bodily injury short of fatal injury.
"Hale was blocked in traffic on all sides," Perini said. "He had dropped back and was writing down Tavai's plates and his courtesy number, where you're supposed to call to report bad driving."
Perini said Tavai approached Hale, who was sitting behind the wheel of his pickup, and told him not to call the police or the courtesy number, then grabbed Hale by the front of his shirt and pulled him toward the open window while hitting him in the face.
"You can shoot to prevent serious bodily injury," Perini said. "You shouldn't have to decide, `Well, he's going to break my nose, knock my jaw out and detach my retina, but I don't think he'll kill me.' And you don't."
Hale declined to comment after the grand jury finding, but his father, Gordon Hale Jr., said he was overjoyed.
"We're elated," he said, speaking from his son's home. "I have always been a person who thought a man had a right to defend himself. My son was attacked illegally, and he acted to defend himself. He did the right thing."
The father said his son and his entire family were sorry that someone had to lose his life.
"A person is dead," he said, "and that's always too bad."