TexasCHLforum.com

chasfm11 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:51 pm

Soccerdad1995 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:01 pm
I'll take my chances on this and will carry where I am legally able to carry. Heck for a $200 potential fine, I might even act as my own attorney at the trial and question the shop owner on whether they are generally aware of laws that impact their business, or if they are in the normal practice of just "winging it" on legal requirements like they are claiming they did with their intent to prohibit all carry. Come to think of it, that might set the stage for a civil lawsuit against the business owner . After all, their lack of a reasonable effort to learn the law was directly responsible for me being dragged to criminal court in the first place.

I'll see your bid and raise you.

1. I think that part of the reason that Constitutional Carry passed this past session was that the Liberals saw that they would have to spend way more political capital to fight it than it was worth, given the other priorities. It seems clear that they want to make sure that they can cheat at elections and want o focus there.
2. One of the reasons that we had such a hard time with Open Carry and Campus Carry was that there were Liberals running around, stirring up the public. There were Libs passing out signs when OC passed and while a lot of business owners put them up, many of taken them down. Even some of the 30.07 signs have disappeared from restaurants. I have no illusions about my showing up OC in one of those and being asked to cover up or leave but I've gotten really sloppy about concealment and as long as most of the holster is cover, I don't worry. No one has ever said a thing in one of those places. Absent the same kind of public lobbying with Con. Carry, most businesses and and ever larger segment of the public doesn't know that it passed and isn't aware of the pending implementation on September 1st. I predict that it will be like MPA. I don't see the Lamestream media diverting much of their attention to it and as long as that remains the case, It will remain unnoticed. There may be a fraction of an uptick in those carrying concealed but would wager that it is more like a relief to those that were already carrying without a license. I'm not saying that it will be incident free.
3.Within that context, the chances of something besides an extremely rare incident triggering action against an LTC are on par with getting hit by lighting twice. Stupid games still can win stupid prizes but the fact that we have such a outstanding history with the LTC community in Texas suggests that even bypassing a 30.06 sign because there is no 30.05 sign is not going to be a problem, concealed being concealed. My guess is that most retailers, even the woke ones are having trying keeping the lights on and are not going to pick fights unless there are extraordinary circumstances. Businesses haven't gotten more sophisticated regarding guns through the course of the pandemic.
4. Events over the past weekend which gained some publicity demonstrate that at least some of the big city police departments are out of control. All bets are off for what happens within those city limits. I was never a fan of Dallas to begin with and now will avoid stepping foot over its boundary unless there is absolutely no other choice and the circumstances are dire.

oohrah wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:00 pm

ScottDLS wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:33 pm

I don't see how a jury could reasonably conclude that a pictogram of a Beretta style semi auto meant that a person's entry to the location was prohibited, ...

Your viewpoint is biased. The public is ignorant of the laws, and most on a jury would naturally assume that a gunbuster sign has exactly that meaning.

TexasVet wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:46 pm Reviewing the [Pre-paid legal service] document, am I reading it correctly that a person who is licensed is not able to carry into a location that has valid 30.06 or 30.07 Signage depending on their carry method. However an unlicensed person would be able to do both of those things if only those two signs are present. So can we determine under which laws authority we are carrying? If I can’t carry with an LTC in a building then can I carry with constitutional carry? Or are TLC holders held to a more strict restriction?

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:07 pm Unfortunately this debate and hundreds more are raging across many forums, discussion groups and more across the state. I read somewhere that due to the poorly written law it most likely have to be straitened out and redefined in a court room. And probably with some poor fella who decided to carry in a posted location. The advice I’m giving to students is to err on the side of caution.

oljames3 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 4:08 pm

ScottDLS wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:57 pm

oljames3 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:33 pm ...
I am also not a lawyer. HB1927 did not amend TPC 30.05(b)(2)(C) which seems to indicate that any sign that reasonably prohibits handguns would be effective notice. https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/docs ... /PE.30.htm

(C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden;

It did amend TXPC 30.05, specifically to provide the specifications for written notice to bar entry with a firearm.

Nothing about pictogram sign makes it at all clear that entry to the location is forbidden, particularly for a commercial establishment generally open to the public.

Yes, HB1927 did amend parts of TPC 30.05. HB1927 did not amend TPC 30.05(b)(2)(C). It seems reasonable to me that a jury would reasonably conclude that a handgun inside of the international "STOP" symbol would reasonably prohibit the carrying of handguns. It remains the province of the jury to decide what is reasonable.

oljames3 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:33 pm ...
I am also not a lawyer. HB1927 did not amend TPC 30.05(b)(2)(C) which seems to indicate that any sign that reasonably prohibits handguns would be effective notice. https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/docs ... /PE.30.htm

(C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden;

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:12 pm

ScottDLS wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:57 pm
...

What section of TXPC 30.05 supports that contention?

There is no contention.... I.E No argument.... 30.05 under criminal trespass. Effective notice (and I don't have the new text under HB 1927). 30.05 or gun buster sign is legal when not carrying under the authority of LTC... 30.06 / 07 are the actual only signs that must meet a legal definition under LTC, whereas 51% and 46.03 apply to both... 30.05 and gun buster apply to C carry only... read the US law shield publication.. Their attorneys and multiple others out there who are much smarter than me agree that gun buster signs are effective and legal notice for C Carry.

Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS.
(a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:
(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or
(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.
(b) For purposes of this section:
(1) "Entry" means the intrusion of the entire body.

(2) "Notice" means:
(A) oral or written communication by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;
(B) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock;
(C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden;
(D) the placement of identifying
...

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:52 pm

ScottDLS wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:46 pm

powerboatr wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:29 pm double down on a GREAT presentation in this document.

my wife was up until after 4 am reading and re-reading and writing down questions.
we have had numerous hours this morning on the merits and rules plus the LTC of which i have.
its a fantastic little teaching document and my household is very very thankful it was put together.
really like the references that make it easier to go read the law to further help guide the brain

i did find the chart to be odd in regards to signage and how the law makes its seem funny, if posted one way then only unlicensed holders are allowed

That and the contention that a Beretta silhouette with a circle and a slash constitutes effective notice under 30.05. Lawyers being lawyers, especially since they have prepaid legal services offerings and it is in their interest to dissuade you from being the proverbial "test case".

What contention, it’s pretty black and white for non LTC.. Gun buster signs are effective notice under C carry.

powerboatr wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:29 pm double down on a GREAT presentation in this document.

my wife was up until after 4 am reading and re-reading and writing down questions.
we have had numerous hours this morning on the merits and rules plus the LTC of which i have.
its a fantastic little teaching document and my household is very very thankful it was put together.
really like the references that make it easier to go read the law to further help guide the brain

i did find the chart to be odd in regards to signage and how the law makes its seem funny, if posted one way then only unlicensed holders are allowed

Excaliber wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:05 am That is a very well put together guide and is clear even for those not used to reading legalese.

Giving it a read could keep folks out of trouble they could easily get into with all the law changes grouped under the title of "constitutional carry." There are a bunch of them.

An important note is that obtaining and maintaining an LTC is still very worthwhile and carries significant privileges and benefits not available to those without an LTC. Example: if you forget a handgun in your carryon bag at the airport security checkpoint, an LTC holder gets the opportunity for a "do over" and can leave and secure his gun somewhere before going through again. A non-LTC holder goes right into cuffs for a felony.