TexasCHLforum.com

Keith B wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:

jordanusmc wrote:Ok well on the same lines of a post office being in a shopping center what about a police substation being in a mall or shoping center? I obviously understand that you can not carry in to a police station. However can you carry in a mall with a substation or even in to the actuall substation at the mall?

Actually, you can legally carry in a police station. Although they have the right to temporarily require you to disarm if they have a secure locker to store your gun.

Only the secured area is prohibited for police stations (although some try to make the whole station off-limits.) Same would be applicable to a substation in a mall. If they had a secured area (like holding cells, etc.) then that area would be off-limits.

The way I read the statute GC 411.207 they are "authorized" to disarm you in the secure area, but not required to. There is no penal code law prohibiting you from carrying there, it's just that the police can disarm you there if they so choose, and I assume they usually do.

jordanusmc wrote:Ok well on the same lines of a post office being in a shopping center what about a police substation being in a mall or shoping center? I obviously understand that you can not carry in to a police station. However can you carry in a mall with a substation or even in to the actuall substation at the mall?

Actually, you can legally carry in a police station. Although they have the right to temporarily require you to disarm if they have a secure locker to store your gun.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:

chabouk wrote:18 USC 930 defines a "federal facility" as a "building or portion of a building" where federal employees work. By the same reasoning that "incident to" precludes buying stamps while armed, it's impossible for hunting to be "incident to" being armed in a "federal facility". Or, perhaps "incident to" has a broader definition when it comes to "lawful purposes".

It does not have a broader meaning in the context of "lawful purposes." I too noted the problem with using the narrowly defined term "facility," but the effect doesn't broaden the scope of the phrase "incident to hunting or other lawful purposes." Rather it probably renders the exception meaningless in terms of hunting, but not in terms of "other lawful purposes." For example, it could well be lawful to engage in target shooting in a "federal facility," or it could be lawful to teach a firearms course in a "federal facility" using firearms.

chabouk wrote:I really shouldn't have gotten into that, because none of it applies to post offices. Someone earlier posted a link to the buckeyefirearms page where a lawyer convincingly demonstrates that USPS is exempt from 18 USC 930. Citing that code while discussing the post office is irrelevant, because 18 USC 930 does not apply in post offices. They have their own, separate CFR that covers parking lots and all property, not just buildings.

Yes, I said this in an earlier post in this thread and I've been teaching this for years. However, many folks who accept the "other lawful activities" exception nevertheless still believe Post Office carry is legal. Plus, the 18 U.S.C. 930 "exception" applies to any federal facility, so the impact of the phrase "incident to" is still important.

Chas.

A few things that come to mind in this discussion...

What is the implementing legislation for the CFR prohibiting firearms on Post Office property? If it is 18 USC 930, then I agree you could not carry in a Post Office facility, but you'd seem to be OK in the parking lot and on the property based on the definition of facility and the requirements for posting notice in the law.

If it's 39 USC 410 as the Buckeye Firearms attorney suggests in his web page analysis, then I don't find the elements of the crime nor a definition of the punishment for violating the regulation, at least not in the law (39 USC 410). In fact, if 18 USC 930 is not applicable, the penalty described in the CFR (not the law) is a $50 fine and up to 30 days in jail that could be imposed by a federal magistrate. Same as you could get for smoking, posting handbills, or other conduct prohibited by the Postal CFR. That's kind of the federal equivalent of a Texas Class C misdemeanor, not that I'd advocate breaking the law.

The Buckeye firearms attorney goes on to describe an Ohio law that makes it an Ohio felony to carry where prohibited/posted. So what I see here in Texas... Either you can carry on postal property, but not in a facility, based on 18 USC 930. Or you can't carry on either, based on 39 CFR 232.1, but the maximum penalty is $50 fine and 30 days in jail, and that's IF the CFR can act to create a crime that is not set out in an enabling statute or elsewhere in federal criminal law.