TexasCHLforum.com

This has been an instructive thread. It's funny, I started it by asking a simple question, not ever intending it to go to 4 pages (which is cool that it did). Being still pretty new to CHL, I thought that everything I either can or cannot do while carrying would be bounded by bright, easily recognizable lines. Instead, I am discovering that, like a lot of areas of the law, things can be murky and very much subject to individual interpretation. (This further reinforces my own belief that the more moral a people are, the less need they have for laws.) I am also (again) a relatively new resident of Texas, although I have lived here 35 years ago. As such, I still am not 100% familiar with goings on in the DFW region. So when I started this thread, I expected probably 2 or 3 quick "yes" or "no" answers from people who have been to the Fort Worth Gun Show before, and I certainly didn't realize that it would evolve into a 4 page philosophical discussion.

In reading through this discussion, the most obvious thing that jumps out at me is that people with tons of CHL experience and knowledge of the law can arrive at fundamentally differing conclusions about A) what their CHL permits them to do; B) how that informs their individual perspectives on their carry privileges/rights; and C) how much it informs or reflects their individual feelings about their relationship with government and law enforcement.

One thing that became readily apparent to me as I've read these pages is that I need to stop asking, and go back and do my homework. I have the current CHL book. I have read through it; but it is pretty dry reading, and I am guessing that my mental retention has been rather selective in the process. I need to go back and commit the entire thing to memory, and chalk it up to the discipline of character that is necessary to being a responsible CHL holder. Out of that effort will come my own individual understanding of such things, rather than simply relying on the understanding of others.

kauboy wrote:I do agree that the presence of officers in no way enforces an unenforceable sign, but it sure does add a slight discomfort factor to those fresh to CHL.

And that is what happened to me. Being new to CHL, I was tentative and decided to err on the side of caution. I would like to take a moment to say that all of the input I've received here, pro and con, has been instructive to me and will help to inform my future decision making in similar circumstances.

kauboy, FWIW, you've restored my faith in my eyesight and memory retention, although I have to confess that I did not see the "includes CHLs" tagline either. But as I recall, there were a couple of guys standing in front of me, and they may have obstructed my view just a tad.

Whew!

57Coastie wrote:Frankie says, "FWIW, my recommendation is to simply follow the rules and refrain from posting information that could possibly mislead someone into getting themselves in trouble by becoming a test case when they did not want to."

That says it in a nutshell, Frankie. Cherish your individual principles, but do not cause a newbie to innocently test your principles out when you state a disputed theory as being the gospel. If you feel strongly that you are right, have the courage to test your principles yourself, as did those courageous men and women Frankie mentions.

Jim

Jim, that is exactly why I complied with the officer in question rather than making an issue of the signage. I do cherish my CHL, and I do feel that, in all humility, it sets me apart from other people. It is not something I wish to put at risk where the situation is ambiguous.

In a parallel example, I recently attended the North Texas Irish Festival at the Fair Park in Dallas. There was a large, improperly worded and therefore legally insignificant sign at the entrance which barred entrance for a long list of different weapons types - broadswords, claymores, daggers, scimtars, etc., etc., etc., including guns. However, there were no stern looking Dallas PD officers at the entrance to make sure that all such regulations were being enforced. I carried right past the sign and went on in, confident that I was within my rights. And in fact, once inside, I saw all kinds of people carrying around broadswords, claymores, daggers, scimtars, etc., etc., etc., including a few whom I suspected were CCW'ing.

FWIW, the Fort Worth gun show entrance had a whole different vibe to it, and that is what set me back and caused me to doubt the wisdom of challenging the rules.

kauboy wrote:We were the ones pushing a baby stroller. (teach 'em young, that's my motto )

I'm pretty sure I saw you then, because I did see a couple pushing a stroller, and thought at the time how uncommon it was - and cool.

Actually, I'm wondering if whether or not the city being the property owner is irrelevant... I'm neither an attorney nor a realtor, but it would seem to me that (government excepted) the tenant gets to decide the policy, not necessarily the property owner - particularly since, in this case, the owner is the city. I don't believe it is the case that a business entity needs to be the property owner at the place where it conducts its business in order to be able to post a 30.06. I could be wrong about that, but if I'm not, then why didn't the gun show promoter, being the tenant, post a 30.06 and be done with it?

This stuff can sure be confusing...

kauboy wrote:I arrived there about 3:00pm. I saw the black sign at the roped off line where the officers were sitting.
Did anybody else go??? What did you see?
My curiosity is through the roof on this. I'm positive of what I saw, and my wife read it too.
Like I said, I'm going back tomorrow with a buddy. If I see the same sign again, I'm gonna try and grab a snapshot with my cell cam.

NEED ANSWERS!!!

kauboy, I got there around 12:30-1:00, and left around 4:00. BTW, I recall passing by a man and his wife in one aisle who were both wearing blue t-shirts with white lettering with the name of a Burleson area high school on the front. That wasn't you and your wife, was it? Just curious.

kauboy wrote:BTW, Annoyed man, the Amon G. Carter exhibit hall is owned by the city of Fort Worth. Therefore, 30.06 is not legally enforceable anyways.
The thing is, none of us have tempted fate and outright asked by bringing it up to an officer.

Yeah, I admit that was dumb. Chalk it up to inexperience.

I'm curious where you saw a "No Exceptions" sign? I only saw the black sign with yellow, orange, and green letters stating that CHL is an exception. And they were everywhere.

I promise you it was there at the time... ...my son and I both read the sign together, and he was aware that I was packing. I saw no such signs about CHL. Maybe they got complaints and changed the signs? Like I said, I was probably overly cautious due to inexperience. The next time I go, I'll know that it's OK to go ahead and carry inside.

Well I just got home from the show. There is no 30.06 sign posted... ...HOWEVER, there is a large sign posted that says absolutely no loaded weapons allowed inside - no exceptions. Seated next to the sign are three Fort Worth police officers, inspecting all weapons being carried in to make sure they are unloaded.

Now, I supposed that since there was no legal signage, technically, I could have walked right in. But, the police being involved as they were, I didn't think it a good idea to challenge things. So, I walked up to one of the officers, and discreetly showed him my card and said, "what am I required to do?" He said to take my weapon back out to the car and secure it, but that I was definitely not allowed inside with it if it was loaded. Later, talking to one of the vendors, I complained a little bit about that, and he told me that even the vendors are not allowed to carry a loaded weapon while they are inside.

I supposed that I could have pointed out that there is no 30.06 sign posted and that I am therefore within my rights to carry inside, but the flip side to that argument would be, "If you're so certain, why did you ask me in the first place?" I've had my plastic for about a month now, and I'm still trying to feel my way around with this thing. I realize that, by asking him, I A) exposed the fact that I CCW, and B) set myself up for being told to take it out to the car. In retrospect, I guess that I was too tentative. But on the other hand, I would rather err on the side of caution than to get rousted by the cops - even if they are wrong.

That being said, I realized that a Texas gun show, at least the Fort Worth gun show, is no more safe than going to any shopping mall. All those guns - literally thousands of them, not counting the onces that attendees were carrying in - and not one loaded chamber in the place that wasn't being carried by a cop.

So, I'm asking, what would all of you have done, and did the fact that a cop told me to secure my weapon in the car actually make it mandatory for me to do so?

My son and I are headed over to the Fort Worth Gun Show in a little while at the Amon G. Carter Exhibit Hall of the Will Rogers Memorial Center. I just wanted to know if they post a 30.06 there or not, or if there are any other reasons why I cannot legally carry into the show. Any quick response would be appreciated as I'm out the door pretty soon.

Thanks.