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sooeey2u wrote:If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.

Clint Smith, quoted on page 1 of this thread.

wheelgun1958 wrote:

tarkus wrote:I won't "take" a butt whipping from anyone on the street except a uniformed peace officer.

Nope, not even then.

wheelgun1958, I appreciate your sentiment, but with all due respect, that is a huge mistake to make.

It may prove out in your favor at the officer's' trial after your funeral, but until they are charged and a court rules in your favor, you might be the one in violation of the law. What are you going to do? Shoot a cop because you were refusing to submit to a questionable arrest and you escalated it until you were the recipient of a wooden shampoo? What if your refusal to submit to the arrest was legally insupportable? What if the cop was actually right in trying to arrest you, and you — not being a lawyer with a practice in constitutional law — were actually in violation of the law and subject to arrest? You're going to resist anyway and kill him if that's what it takes to avoid getting roughed up?

The OP's original question didn't address the issue of rough treatment at the hands of police. He postulated a physical confrontation between two non-LEOs. In that context, you have absolutely no moral obligation to submit to a whuppin'. But the incidence of unrestrained police brutality, while it does happen very rarely, is not something that most police encounters are going to involve. And even in the most egregious circumstances, wisdom dictates passive cooperation. You can always take them down in a courtroom later if you have right and justice on your side. Even the infamous Rodney King would not have gotten the whuppin he received if he had just complied.

Just my 2¢, and again, no disrespect intended.

RocTrac wrote:First Off MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!!!!
Thanks for the replies, Mike and TAM.
Mike, I did not see or know of the particulars of Mr. Hale's situation. I am glad that he was able to stop the attack.
Guys, I understand the physical limitations that we all face.
Like you TAM, I don't go out to bars or drink. I avoid places/area's that are suspect. Keeping windows rolled up/doors locked, not being in park and picking a escape route are pretty much ingrained.
I have to drive through some pretty rough areas for work and think of situations and how to get out. I understand that there are some things that we can do nothing about or maybe just didn't see the situation evolving until it is to late to get out without presenting. Thanks for your time.
Carl

Hey, you do what you have to do. If your work takes you through some rough areas, then that's just the way it is, and like you said, you keep the doors locked, windows up, etc. I'm just glad you're a sober person who exercises caution wherever possible, and takes steps wherever possible to avoid trouble in the first place. My particular remarks about bars, behavior, etc., really address a few posts I've seen over the past couple of years here on this forum in which the OP talks about having been at a bar, out late, somebody's been drinkin', there was a verbal confrontation, trouble in the parking lot, someone pulls a gun... ...and the OP wants to know if he did the right thing by reacting this way or that way. Well, the right thing would have been to stay the heck out of honky tonks in the first place and stay sober, and the OP is surprised at the reactions he generates.

You're welcome for the time. It's no trouble at all. Merry Christmas to you.

RocTrac wrote:So, on another forum a guy is talking about getting hit and how having his (insert gun) would have made things all better.
Maybe it is my upbringing, but I was brought up "in a fist fight us your fists", "a fight is between 2 men, help is not needed or accepted"," take your lumps like a man"
Today, it seems like teens/young men are resorting to using weapons. This causes me to take things to the next step.
So, do you take a whipping? At what point do you resort to pulling your side arm?
Personally, I avoid situations that I would need my side arm. I first started getting concerned after Katrina and the crime rate began to climb in my neighborhood. At first just something in the home. As I watched the news and saw that more and more folks are being attacked in their cars or in parking lots. In New Orleans this was common place now it is common place here.
Personally, if my family is involved at all. I will take all available/extreme action.
If I am out numbered, or the other person is at all armed. I will take action.
I have taken a butt whipping before and will again.

RocTrac, I would say that it depends on a lot of factors such as your own physical condition, your ability to absorb punishment, whether or not your family is involved or at risk, whether or not your own behavior brought it on, etc. As Mike1951 pointed out regarding himself: A) he doesn't trust the opponent to have "limits" any longer because the culture has coarsened; and B) his own ability to fight unarmed and to take a beating, which wasn't that good before, has been drastically reduced by injury.

Mike's handle (Mike1951) and the fact that he took a whuppin' at age 17 which was 41 years ago tell me that he is one year older than I am, and I know exactly how he feels about it. I was never a great fighter, although for a time, martial arts training leveled the playing field somewhat for me (analogous to Mike's police training). These days, I am too crippled by cumulative back injuries including one resulting in an 8" scar up my lower spine to be any good in a physical fight.

Did you ever wonder why old dogs are more cranky than young pups? They just want to be left alone. They don't want to play rough; and you can take your stick/tennis ball/what-have-you and shove it in a dark, moist place. They're not interested. Two things decline in a man as he grows older. One is his natural male aggression. The other is his willingness to take punishment. He is less interested in the fight for its own sake, and more interested in survival. That leads to a certain mindset — call it "old dog" crankiness if you will — in which he avoids places where trouble is likely to develop (old dog wants to be left alone), and if trouble finds him anyway, he is more willing to use whatever means are necessary to defend himself (bite), because he is going to run out of options faster than a younger, more fit and aggressive individual (the ability to run away, for instance).

Because of my back, I live with a certain amount of pain every single day of my life. It is bearable, but I am definitely not interested in more of it. There is a direct correlation — although some guys don't want to admit it — between where and how you spend your time on the one hand, and the likelihood of getting into a physical confrontation on the other. I avoid those places where that is more likely to happen. I don't hang out in bars, for instance. I rarely ever drink, and when I do, it is in great moderation. I also avoid behaviors which can lead to confrontations. I don't drive aggressively for instance. I reserve my middle finger for politicians on the TV screen. I could cite a lot of other ways in which my personal behavior is deliberately calculated so as to minimize my need to ever have to defend myself. I've been doing it so long now that a lot of it is habitual and I rarely ever have to think about it.

Because I go out of my way to avoid trouble, I am far less willing to add more pain to my daily existence, and consequently, the threshold at which I am likely to feel pushed into drawing my weapon is shorter for me than it might be for a younger, more physically capable, more pain-free individual. I believe in a moral sense that my sober and cautious behavior more than offsets that shorter threshold.

I don't start fights and I don't behave in a way that would cause someone to start a fight with me; but I surely aim to finish a fight, because I am NOT going to take a beating from someone who brings trouble to my door. I'm too old for that crap.