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The Annoyed Man

Slowplay makes an excellent point. There is a significant difference between a "leftist" and what is referred to as a "classical liberal" in the Locke-ian mold. There is a similar difference between a conservative and a "right winger." If we use the classical definition, then a self-identified conservative is a John Locke liberal, and therefore has much in common with some self-identified liberals. I have been guilty of carelessness in terminology myself, but let me make it clear that in my thinking, a hard core leftist is one who espouses class warfare and socialism and a fundamental remaking of America into something the founders never intended. As such they are no better than either National Socialists or Communists. I am not naive enough to think that describes the majority of self-identified liberals. Neither am I naive enough to think that their favored policies are correct. That is why we have politics.

The Annoyed Man

VeggieRonin wrote:
The Annoyed Man wrote: Does it help to add that the Klukkers were all democrats and MLK was a registered republican? (true)

I'm just twisting your tail a little bit for fun. Please don't be offended.
It absolutely helps TAM!
I've no allegiance to a political party so bash the Dems all you want. Obviously "liberal" /= democrat and "conservative" /= republican.

Chas-
There's a little thing called "cognitive dissonance" that makes it hard for everyone to accept new conflicting data. This is a well-demonstrated psychological phenomenon. But we should first realize that there are plenty of pro-gun people that applies to as well. There's quite a bit of psychological data on the approach to changing minds, and that is supposedly the best approach. I've rarely seen it as well - but keep in mind these are rare things generally speaking, not just for gun issues.

VR, you're correct of course, which is why as both a conservative and a republican, I have become so disappointed with my party. Even mainstream republicans seem to have adopted the notion that the public trough is a jobs fair for the connected and that government employment is an entitlement. I'm more than a little fed up with most of them.

The Annoyed Man

VeggieRonin wrote:I liked this series of articles quite a bit: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Raging-A ... lf-Defense" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm a "liberal" by the way - let's be careful we don't throw that word around and make the same mistake the anti-gun people do: come up with a nice convenient term for a very diverse group of people that is emblematic of just the things we don't like.
About now the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are about as useful as "gun-nut" and "hippie". Hoi Polloi's comment is just as true for people who use the term "liberal" in a pejorative way.

I heard once that people are entitled to their own opinions but not entitled to their own facts. If people want to THINK that increasing concealed carry freedom makes things more dangerous, they are welcome to that opinion. Just please acknowledge that the actual facts are exactly the opposite. You can think campus concealed carry will make things more dangerous, and I can think its safer to drive without my seatbelt on. But as long as we are adults we both need to acknowledge the facts don't support our position. Nothing wrong with emotional feeling about things, but realize that as a human society we need to let facts also into the equation.

Pointing out "liberal" support for gun rights helps too. Seeing someone they identify with that position helps:
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/02/25/gun-rally.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/20 ... rship.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reminding them that gun control laws were the Klan's favorite law, that MLK jr and his contingent carried weapons legally for necessary protection, and that http://pinkpistols.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; exists for good reason often helps.

Does it help to add that the Klukkers were all democrats and MLK was a registered republican?

(true)

I'm just twisting your tail a little bit for fun. Please don't be offended.

The Annoyed Man

snatchel wrote:Caleb--Apparently Campus Carry passed through Texas Senate, guess we will see what happens with it.

Cerda-What the heck do you want to carry a gun to school for?

TAM-I didn't say I wanted to. YOU said I wanted to. I merely commented on a bill before the legislature.

Caleb--Things are different outside of California, if criminals can carry here, we think the good citizens should be able to as well.

Cerda-Thats friggin stupid dude

TAM-Is that right?

Caleb--Some say so, I disagree. It's debatable and multi-faceted discussion, so feelings differ. But there are only a few other states besides California that almost definately will not issue concealed handgun licenses to folks of clear mind, morals, and convictions and also legal age. If someone like that chooses to carry for his/her and their families safety, I see nothing wrong with it and fully support it.

Cerda-So what happens when said person has a bad day that throws him over the edge?

TAM-It's Miller Time.

Caleb--The same thing that happens when someone who is unlicensed has a bad day. Point is, licensed or not, if you want to shoot up your town/block/house/walmart-whatever, your going to do it. And licensed or not, if you want to carry a gun there is nothing stopping you. I just choose to do it legally under constitutional and Texas law.

Cerda-So your solution is to have more people with guns? So now someone who gets angry but doesn't own a weapon just has to sucker punch you and then they are armed.

TAM-Not really...... He could just go buy one of his own.

Caleb--Our laws only allow us to carry concealed, so no one would know I had it unless I showed them...or something were to happen where I pulled it in self defense. Also, anyone can get a gun if they want one. If your not legally able to own one, it's as easy to buy off the black market as marijuana.

Cerda-Glad I dont live in Texas, thats a stupid solution

TAM-I'm glad for you too. Please don't move here.

Caleb--It's not a solution, it's simply a matter of protecting ourselves and our families. The same reasoning behind carrying pepper spray or a knife applies to a concealed handgun. Crime isn't something I am trying to solve, I'm just doing everything in my power to stand up for myself and my family if need be.

Cerda-Whatever man.

TAM-"Whatever?" That's the best answer you've got?

Snatchel, I don't think you could have done any better than you did. There are none so blind as those who are willfully so.

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