TexasCHLforum.com

hpcatx wrote:

Divided Attention wrote:However, there are a lot of kids out there that have no clue, and think life is like television... even if you are shot, you will be back on next weeks show.

What are your views on small children playing with toy guns? Does this entrench the wrong approach or are children capable of making the distinction between pointing toys at each other and later correct handling of real firearms? Of course there are no substitutes to properly securing a weapon and eduction (when the time comes), but I ask because Mrs. Hpcatx and I would like to start a family of our own soon and this has been a topic of discussion.

I started my son off shooting at 6 years old, with a single shot boy-sized .22 rifle. I never had any problem getting him to understand the difference between a toy and the real thing.....

....but of course, now his toys are all the real thing. In that light, he is an NRA certified Basic Pistol Instructor, and a blossoming gunsmith.

RHenriksen wrote:You know, this could be the definitive answer for all the 'what pistol should I buy?' threads.

YellowTJ wrote:My experience this summer was related to this topic. I needed a smaller gun than my G19. Online I researched several 380s and finally thought I'd just love the Ruger LCP. I went to the range for a couple hours and tried several different types of small 9mm and 380s. I found that I actually didn't like the Ruger at all. My issue was that it was just too darn small to get a good grip and I had some issues getting it back on target quickly or really even hitting a solid enough group that I was pleased with. I did find happiness with the Sig P238 which ended up being the right size, weight, and caliber for me. I'm sure if they had a 9mm in the same size gun I'd have tied that too however I feel the gun is in perfect balance in the 380 so the 9mm might just the that little extra too much snap like the LCP was to me.

For me it's the total package which makes the gun good for someone. The size, weight, and caliber vs hand size, carry method, stopping power, and recoil all are weighed and hopefully a good carry gun which is used comfortably and often at the range is found.

Maybe so. I also think that there is one factor which above all others will determine whether someone chooses to "caliber down" to a .380 over choosing a pocket 9mm, and that is whether or not they were a "gun person" with a fair amount of firearms experience going into this, or were they first time gun buyers who bought a gun because they saw the need for a CHL.

I was a gun person for many many years before I ever got a CHL. Long before I bought my PM9, I had been carrying and shooting mostly .45s, including a lightweight 3" 1911. Recoil sensitivity is not necessarily an issue for me. I love shooting my Model 29 .44 Magnum, for instance, and yet, there are calibers that are harder for me to get back on target with after the first shot. For me, .45 is easy. So is 9mm. But .40 S&W turns out not to be my favorite, and neither is .380 ACP. I still own one .380, a Colt Government model. It is an all steel gun, and quite a bit heavier than my old Kel-Tech was, but even this Colt is not much fun to shoot—lots of "sturm und drang" for not very much power....or "plenty of fuss, but not much muss." It's not that it is intimidating to me, it is that the bark is out of proportion to the bite. In the very lightweight pistols that are typically chambered in this caliber, it makes for a less than optimum shooting experience. My PM9 packs significantly more power than my Colt, is smaller in every dimension but perhaps the width of the slide (by an insignificant amount), is considerably lighter in weight, and is easier to shoot. Why wouldn't I choose such a gun over a pocket .380?

Coming from the other side of the spectrum are people who maybe owned a gun, but weren't really enthusiastic gun owners; or who perhaps never owned a gun at all and bought their first one because they decided to procure a CHL, for understandable reasons. Perhaps they aren't as much interested in all the gun culture stuff as they are in just having a gun they can conveniently carry, in a caliber that doesn't make them feel overwhelmed.

Of course, there are lots of people whose life experience and motivations fall in between those two extremes; and I'm not suggesting that one description necessarily has more legitimacy than the other version. But that said, those with the greater experience have more options available to them because of the familiarity that their experience brings. More options is usually better, right? And also, isn't the "gun wisdom" of those with greater experience worth listening to, and maybe trying to adopt it into one's own life? That right there is one of the primary reasons for the existence of this forum.

That's all I wanted to say. Everyone has to draw their own conclusions.

I just did a quick comparison chart in light of my previous post, comparing the Kahr PM9 to the Kahr PM45, Glock 36, and 3" Kimber Ultra Carry II:



All data was taken from the respective manufacturers' websites. I included the 9mm pistol because it is a known value as a pocket pistol. When you compare the Kahr PM45 to it, you can see that it is still within the range of practical pocket-ability, although getting up there. The Glock 36 is perhaps marginally pocketable; and the Kimber Ultra is just not a pocket gun, by virtue of its 25 oz empty as much as anything else. In that light, 9mm is perhaps the most powerful self-defense caliber that is practically pocketable without beginning to make too many concessions. The PM45 is a very close second for me, and if some other manufacturer could produce a .45 of similar size/weight/shootability then I would give it a look. But it appears to be difficult to accomplish, or surely there would be more manufacturers attempting it; and the ultimate goal for us as CHLs who pocket carry is to pack as much power as we can into as easily pocketable as possible.

And by the way, I found my old Kel-Tec P3AT to be much more difficult to shoot than my PM9 or my 3" Kimber because every single round fired would bark the knuckles of my trigger finger...........the point being that there is such a thing as too light for caliber even in weaker calibers.

AndyC wrote:The smaller the round, the more expert one should be in its use.

My 2c

Absolutely.

My experience is that shooting my PM9 is subjectively about the same as shooting my 3" Kimber, in terms of perceived recoil.....that is to say, not bad at all. I have let a couple of different friends, plus my wife and son, shoot this gun, and they have all been surprised by how easy it is to shoot, for it being such a small and light (15.9 oz including one empty magazine) pocket pistol.

Now, some brands of manufacture are going to shoot easier than others by virtue of their designs, materials, and workmanship. But overall, I think the pocket 9mm is an idea whose time has come. Mine is only .90" wide and absolutely flat. Although I have greater faith in the power of my even lighter .357 snubbie, the PM9 is so flat and small that concealment is the best of any of the guns I've owned. For instance, for all practical purposes, it conceals pretty much as well as the Kel-Tec P3AT I used to own. That's pretty hard to beat. Obviously, if you can only afford one gun, the pocket 9mm is probably not a good choice for you. But if you are fortunate to own 2 or 3 different guns for different kinds of carry scenarios, then I think you should take a good look at the pocket 9mm pistols. I am personally partial to Kahr's products, but others may certainly be competitive.

I've already sold off my P3AT, and I intend to put my Colt Government .380 up for sale. I've never had complete confidence in the cartridge, and given that the ammo for it is often hard to find and overpriced, it doesn't make sense to invest in pocket pistols in .380 when you can get something pretty much as small and light with a MUCH more powerful cartridge. And modern pocket 9s are often +p rated. I carry Corbon 115 grain +P DPX in mine.

And by the way, there is also a somewhat smaller niche market for pocket .45s. I cannot afford another pistol at the moment, but if I could, I would take a very hard look at the Kahr PM45, which is only a tiny bit larger and an ounce or two heavier than my PM9. I love my 3" Kimber, but it isn't a pocket pistol.