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Liberty wrote:Does anyone really hunt deer with a 30 rnd Mag? I suppose if it was all one had, but Mags aren't that expencive and 30 rounders would be a little awkward.
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Yeah, people do. I likely wouldn't because I own a few 20 round mags, and 30 round magazines fully charged are heavier (even when they aren't fully charged).........but mine are still 20 rounders and not 5 or 10 round mags. And speaking of 10 round magazines, do you really need 10 round magazines to hunt deer with? (You see where I'm headed with this?) The 20 round mags are short enough to not be unwieldy, but I can still hear someone saying "what on earth do you need a 20 round magazine to go hunting with?" My answer, and it applies to 30 round magazines as much as it does to 10 round magazines, is: "It's what I have. Why should I buy smaller capacity mags just to suite you? (the proverbial "you") Why should I have to go out and spend more money to try and satisfy what you think about my needs, when the 30 round magazines I have will work just fine?"

The fact is that most people buy ARs for plinking and self-defense, and probably more of them purchase 30 round magazines for their carbines than other sizes, because that's what makes sense in a self-defense scenario. Some of the more intrepid of those say, "hey, the .223 would make a dandy cartridge for small game to small deer....I think I'll try to take my AR hunting this season and see what's what." As long as they hunt ethically and use the appropriate buller/powder charge combination to make a clean kill, why should anybody give a rip about the capacity of their magazines?

BTW, I bought mostly 30 round mags, but I have three or four 20 rounders. I bought those because they were less unwieldy shooting from a bench. All of those in both sizes are PMags. The one 10 round magazine I own is a metallic mag that came with my Bushmaster varmint rifle. That magazine is a piece of junk, so I likely wouldn't take it hunting because whatever magazine I use is going to have to be reliable.

jeeperbryan wrote:I suspect he's old school like my grandfather and not keen on black guns. My grandpa doesnt understand the concept of target shooting. When he goes to a shooting range its for a competiton or to zero a gun. Plus I bet the guy has more punks coming to the gun counter to check out the "machine gun" rather than normal shooters like us. I have to agree with him about hunting deer with a 30 round 223 though. Completely overkill capacity and insufficient round for ethically shooting deer IMHO.

I have a friend who has taken most of his deer with an AR15. I was there for one of them–a shot to the back of the head from 92 yards out. The bullet exited between her eyes. The doe dropped right where she stood and never took another step, DRT. He has shown me the autopsy pictures he took after using a 65 grain Sierra Gameking at about 3000 fps. The bullet hit right behind the shoulder, blew out the buck's heart and exited the off side. Range to target was just under 200 yards. The buck took about 10 steps and keeled over.

I too would rather hunt deer with a .30 caliber round, but I don't think that using a .223 is unethical in and of itself. It becomes unethical when used by an unwise shooter in circumstances which are stacked against the success of the cartridge. One of my old shooting buddies grew up during the depression in rural Pennsylvania. He took all of his deer back then with a .22LR. But he was a real good hunter.

He's a sales clerk at a big box store. His opinion, plus $2.95, will get you a cup of coffee. I really only get into these kinds of discussions with people who actually show some intelligent curiosity about the topic.

I had a friend at church give me the old "what do you need an AR15 to go hunting for?" business. he said that nobody needs that much power to shoot a deer. He's a good guy and he's not a hunter, so I gently led him through the comparison of the .223 to the .270 or .30-'06 in power. "Well then, why do you need a 30 round 'clip' for hunting?" I said, "you don't need 30 rounds to hunt a deer. You're car has a 20 gallon gas tank, doesn't it? You don't burn 20 gallons of gas every time you leave the house, do you? I'm not going to shoot the deer 30 times. It only takes one shot. The rifle comes with a 30 round magazine, just like your car comes with a 20 gallon tank......because the rifle can also be used for other things besides deer hunting......just like you might leave the house one day and drive to Austin instead of Fort Worth, and that 20 gallon tank needs to be filled." He still doesn't like guns, but at least he understands the arguments about 30 round magazines and how the .223 round is not some kind of King Kong powerhouse.

You just can't change some people's minds. They hold onto their cherished notions because it is intellectually easier. If you change your mind on guns, it kind of forces you to change the way you thought about a lot of other things. Believe me. I know. I was an antigun zealot until my dad died and I inherited his old WW2 1911. I didn't want to get rid of it because it was a keepsake from his life, and I honored his WW2 service. So since I was going to have this thing in my house, I asked some knowledgeable friends to take me to a range and teach me how to shoot it, field strip it, and clean it. It was while talking with them that they introduced me to the whats whys and wherefore's of the 2nd Amendment. That's what got me to looking at the rest of the Constitution.

But in order to experience such a profound paradigm shift, I had to let go of some cherished notions that I had held onto my entire life until then. It was not an easy thing to do, and I continue to evolve. The problem with people who hate guns is that they shy away from evolution because it can be a scary thing. 6 years after my dad's death in 1990, I voted as a Republican for the first time. The democrat party has lost me, probably forever. The republican party is "this" close to losing me. My outlook on life is completely different these days—all because I decided to get educated about one single inherited pistol.

Some times, taking an "anti" to the range is the best thing you can do for them. They'll either retreat to their entrenched positions, or they will evolve. The timid or intellectually lazy will retreat. The courageous and intellectually honest will evolve.

But don't take anybody who makes jokes about fragging you at the range. That's not even close to funny. Someone like that really isn't mature enough for the responsibility inherent in handling a firearm.