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VMI77 wrote:

rotor wrote:It's not "insurance" if the rates are the same for everyone no matter what their condition. All real insurance is based on risk adjustment. You own an expensive car you pay a higher rate. You own a Yugo you pay a lower rate. You don't expect to pay the same for a $250,000 house versus the guy down the street with a $100,000 house. The ONLY way you can charge everyone the same rate is to overcharge everyone. So, the healthy individual is not rewarded for being healthy- he/she will be overcharged to make up for the 3 pack a day smoker down the block. And why buy insurance at all. Pay the stupid fine, when you get sick you buy insurance because they can't deny you and they can't charge you more. Everything is free- why worry- they will take care of you- your taxes will go down and you will have the same medical care that Obama gets. Sure!

Exactly. I just wish I could save on home and car insurance too by only buying it AFTER the fire or the accident. After all, if I buy insurance after my house burns down, it's a "per-existing condition."

cb1000rider wrote:

VMI77 wrote: Wow....so, because of decisions other people make, I have to expend my labor for their care and existence --making me, in essence, their slave? So, money should be taken from me at gunpoint and used to treat some gang banger that got shot in a drive-by? That's your idea of ethical? What you propose is not only evil, but counterproductive. There are a substantial number of human beings on this planet and in this country who are not going to work and make themselves afford things like medical care when they can get it for free. It's a law of the universe: when you pay for something you get more of it. When you pay people not to work you get more people not working.

Your example is extreme. Certainly I wouldn't *choose* to support some gang banger that was shot by someone acting in self-defense. However, that gang-banger is going to be taken to a hospital, where a doctor who swore an oath to treat all people is going to treat him, regardless of how the issue occurred. Someone has to pay for that. The alternative is that someone gets to make a decision about who gets life-saving treatment an who doesn't based on very limited (and often incorrect) facts. You ready to make that call?

The gang-banger gets treated with tax dollars also. That stinks. It's not just, but I don't want to be the one deciding who is in and who is out... Sounds too much like a "death panel" to me.

Let's try a less extreme example. Lets say that I'm 20, I go to school and work to better myself. I don't have insurance as I don't have a full time job and my parents can't cover me. All of a sudden, I've got cancer. I didn't choose cancer. I don't smoke and I'm not lazy.. Stuff happens. Cancer treatment, assuming it is treatable, can run $100k/year. What should happen to this guy?

There are all sorts of stories in between. And sure there are lazy people who want a hand out. But do admit there are not-so-lazy people who can't afford the $12-$14k in insurance costs that I quoted for a family of 4.

The way it worked pre-Obamacare is that the taxpayers would cover it in some form or fashion. Maybe through taxes. Maybe through ridiculous "walk-in" medical costs. Regardless, the costs have gone so high over the last 10 years that it's clearly unsustainable.

VMI77 wrote: You've totally bought into the notion that the government solves problems. There never has been such a government on this planet, and never will be. The government creates problems...and outside of a functioning justice system (which we no longer have), and a military to defend our borders (which it no longer does), that's all it does...create problems and make life worse for the majority, while enriching the elites who rule over us. That's all any government has ever done. Henry David Thoreau could already see it over 150 years ago:

I think that there are problems that the government tries to solve and does a poor job of... on that, you and I agree...
Course, we, the sheep, tend to elect people who promise to give us hand-outs and provide for us at no cost to us, paid for by other people. When is the last time you voted for someone who said that they were going to raise our taxes to pay for the things that we already bought and decrease our benefits? Wait.. No one runs on a platform like that.

1. Denial of Care: until Obama's death panels, nobody has been denied care, including your 20 year old cancer patient. We have had public healthcare for generations now to cover the medical needs of people of small means. IF people did not take advantage of it, that is on them, not on the system. I worked in healthcare for a number of years.....in a private hospital, no less. We never turned away a patient. Did we eventually transfer destitute patients to public hospitals? Yes, we did; but NOT until they were stable to transfer without risk to their health. Those are facts. Those destitute patients, treated by doctors who get paid, have always gotten treatment, and the doctors always got paid. The cost of providing this public healthcare is an iota of a fraction of the cost of Obamacare, and it was paid for out of the taxes you and I were already paying.
2. Assets: the purpose of health insurance has NEVER been to provide for your healthcare (see above....it's all provided for if you have no money....), it was to protect your assets, which includes bank accounts, real estate, and other possessions. Ask any insurance agent. Insurance is about asset protection. If you have assets, then the insurance protects you from having to liquidate your assets to pay for your healthcare. If you don't have assets, then you don't absolutely need the insurance. The only reason for a person without assets to have health insurance is to be able to afford "cadillac" medical care.......which has less to do with whether you get the latest in treatment than it has to do with whether or not you can have a private room, or whether you can stay in a private hospital versus the public hospital. But without it, you will STILL get the healthcare, and without assets, there is nothing to take away from you to pay for it......which is why the state pays for it already, through the taxes you and I already pay.

cb1000rider wrote:I know that lots of you have made up your minds.

10/3

WHEN MANY THINGS SEEM to be going wrong, trust Me. When your life feels increasingly out of control, thank Me. These are supernatural responses, and they can lift you above your circumstances. If you do what comes naturally in the face of difficulties, you may fall prey to negativism. Even a few complaints can set you on a path that is a downward spiral, by darkening your perspective and mind-set. With this attitude controlling you, complaints flow more and more readily from your mouth. Each one moves you steadily down the slippery spiral. The lower you go, the faster you slide; but it is still possible to apply brakes. Cry out to Me in My Name! Affirm your trust in Me, regardless of how you feel. Thank Me for everything, though this seems unnatural—even irrational. Gradually you will begin to ascend, recovering your lost ground.

When you are back on ground level, you can face your circumstances from a humble perspective. If you choose supernatural responses this time—trusting and thanking Me—you will experience My unfathomable Peace.

• But I trust in your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in your salvation.
  PSALM 13:5
  
  ... always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
  EPHESIANS 5

Yesterday, the news about Obamacare fell on us like hammer-blows. Our insurance agent phoned and went over all the options with me. My wife is definitely going to lose her health insurance because the law is going to take it away from her. As of 12/31/2014, Obamacare forces her current policy to cease to exist. She won't "get to keep her insurance if she likes it," as the thief in chief assured us would be the case. He is a liar. Big surprise.

Her insurance will go up from $245/month for a policy she likes with a $5,000 deductible, to $595/month for a policy she doesn't need. Maternity care? For a 55 year old woman? Really? Abortion on demand? For a vocally pro-life woman? THIS is the kind of tripe that is more than doubling her health insurance cost. She would have a lower deductible, from $5,000 down to $2,000, but her annual policy cost would go from $2,940 to $7,140.

As for me, I can opt in (currently uninsured) to a $536/month policy with a $6,000 deductible, with 100% out of pocket until the deductible is met, and 100% coverage after it is met. In other words, I have to pay $6,432 in annual policy payments AND $6,000 in deductible before I get to see coverage.

[comment.... by the way, these policy prices are only good through 12/14. Nobody knows what they'll be in 12/15 because, as of yet, there is no data history in the program on which to base the rates......but only drunks and clowns believe that they will go down....]

If we both opt out. . .which we'll have to do because we simply can't afford Obamacare, we will pay an annual fine of 1% of our adjusted gross income. We don't have the 2012 figure yet [still finalizing taxes], but our AGI was approximately $77,000 in 2011. Based on that, our fine will be roughly $750-$850 dollars a year. . .which will be used to subsidize insurance for people whose AGI is $25,000 a year less than that.

Our government is giving us an ultimatum, accept the poorhouse government plantation, or accept punishment for refusing to condone the evil.

I don't normally talk about this kind of stuff during my devotional, but I wanted to lay it out there as a preface for what comes next. All of the above dropped on us yesterday. My wife was rocked. Badly. So was I. But I assured her that we were far from the only couple in the nation, right at that very moment, having that very conversation. It goes beyond the financial blow. On Saturday, I will be 61 years old, and this is the closest I have ever seen my nation to the brink of a literal civil war. There are millions of people in this country are are literally only a few steps from taking up arms against their own government. It is a terribly frightening thing, and in their massive pride and ego, the people who are forcing this abomination onto us believe that we'll just lay down and take it. Obama promised hope and change, in that order. What he has given us is disastrous change, and loss of hope. . . .if I fall into the trap of putting my hope in worldly things.

Our hope in things not of this world is about to be severely tested. The words of the author in the devotionals of the past couple of days speak to hoping and trusting in the goodness of the Lord. We believe in this. We really do. I believe in this, truly, down in my bones. He has shown me His goodness in the past. He will continue to show me His goodness going forward. I have to keep faith with that, even in the face of enormous challenges. Since 1865, Americans who believe in the Goodness and Faithfulness of God have not had their faith in those things really and truly tested. . .here at home, on our soil. Christians in places like Darfur, and India, and North Korea have historically always had far bigger faith challenges to overcome, than Obamacare and its inevitable fallout if democrats do not agree to pull us back from the brink to which they have shoved us.

Jesus promised us that it was going to get rough. He didn't mean strictly in America; he meant in the world. But those troubles which we have successfully held at bay ever since the end of our civil war, and which other peoples in other countries have had to confront for generations, are about to intrude into our national sanctuary.

It is in times like these when faith is tested. It is not just the test of a personal illness or a financial crisis. It is the test of faith which happens when one's entire social structure begins to disintegrate, and the more savage of man's instincts begin to be revealed. Obama has successfully changed the nation from the world's most powerful, to an irrelevancy. This will not come without a severe domestic price.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change;
The courage to change the things I can;
And the wisdom to know the difference;
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardship as the pathway to peace;
Take, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is;
And not as I would have it;
Trusting that You will make all things right if I surrender to Your will;
So that I may be reasonably happy in this life;
And supremely happy with You forever in the next;

Father in heaven, Your name is Holy;
Your kingdom come, Your will be done;
On earth as it is in heaven;
Give my wife and me today our daily portion of Your Spirit;
And forgive us our sins against You,
As we forgive each other our sins against one another;
Do not let us be led down a path of lies and deceit, temptations, and loss of faith in Your vast goodness;
But deliver us from the schemes of the devil, and his minions in government and out of it;
For Yours is the kingdom, the power and the glory,
Forever and ever.

Amen

sjfcontrol wrote:

cb1000rider wrote: Obamacare or not, something had to change or eventually most of us would end up not being able to afford medical coverage. And getting coverage after having a health condition like Cancer? Forget about it... It wasn't going to happen. Basically, I'd support a "better idea". Haven't seen one. Until I see one, I'm solidly wait-and-see... I want the statistical data that won't be out for a few months.

Simply not true. The Texas Health Insurance Pool is (was) available for those that couldn't otherwise qualify due to preexisting conditions. My wife had cancer, and was covered under the pool until she turned 65 and medicare took over. Expensive? Yes. High Deductibles? Yes. But it was insurance and was available.

A unique new survey of health care professionals finds that 56 percent oppose Obamacare, with more than nine in 10 believing that there could be major negative impacts such as a drop in quality care. A shocking 19 percent believe Americans will die earlier.

In its 2013 Health Care Survey of 200 top health care professionals nationally, Coupa Software told Secrets that health care professionals are worried about a number of setbacks that the health law could result in. Asked to list the “negative impacts,” of which they could pick several, here's what Coupa found:

-- 53 percent, “Quality of health insurance policies will suffer.”

-- 51 percent, “Quality of care will go down.”

-- 49 percent, “The law is overly complicated.”

-- 42 percent, “Insurance exchanges will be poorly managed.”

-- 37 percent, “The law still allows insurance companies to be the middleman.”

-- 32 percent, “Too complex for businesses.”

-- 19 percent, “Americans will die earlier.”

rotor wrote:And if Obamacare is so great why do the politicians and their staff get exempted?

Vol Texan wrote:

gthaustex wrote:Everyone is talking about their premiums going up. That is just the insurance side of it. Wait until we all get hit with higher federal taxes as well to help fund the inevitable shortfalls I see in the future...medicaid, medicare, social security....ring any bells. Higher taxes, higher premiums and lower benefits is the only way to balance out all the costs it seems to me.

Somewhere, Jimmy Carter is smiling, knowing that soon he'll be known as the '2nd worst'...

paperchunker wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:I haven't had any insurance since February of 2008. You manage, that's all.

I found a doctor who does not take insurance. Cash, check or credit card only. Office visit is $35, yesterday he wanted to do an EKG, it cost me an extra $10
I see him twice a year to get BP meds renewed.