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ml1209 wrote:Tragic, prayers for the family

I used to live in Arizona and I would go out to the desert outside of Phoenix to shoot all the time. It's a lot more fun than going to the gun range, BUT there is also a lot more risk. You are out in the middle of nowhere, with no medical services nearby. You are also vulnerable to whoever you might meet out there. I ran into an older guy with a 1911 on his hip. Actually he approached me and my girlfriend. He was friendly, but out there he could have been a serial killer for all we knew, and no one would ever find us.

When it got to the point where I had to leave an armed person at the tables we had set up to watch over the guns while the rest of us carried sidearms when we went downrange to inspect targets, that was the moment it stopped being fun and I stopped going to those ranges. This was in Los Angeles County, and once the gang-types discovered these ranges, things started getting kind of sketchy. They ruined it for all the rest of us, just like they do everywhere else.

Archery1 wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:

Archery1 wrote:If I had the time, I could pull at least 6 posts from just the last year on our community Facebook page where reports of cars being hit, porch post, fences, and whizzing bullets heard through folks' yards - all target/plinker shooting. Lived here 57 years without such carelessness going on. It ain't that hard to know where your bullet is going to stop against what and what's in line between, but I think we have a generation now that doesn't care.

I'm just curious..... whereabouts do you live? Is it near a range, or is it people shooting on public land?

No, it's very rural, outside city limits. Backyard shooters. Lots of it as small mini ranches are replacing the rice fields. Its just plain irresponsible shooting, careless folks, and more and more them. Every weekend, in variuos parts, it tannerite parties that rock the town. There seems a certain level of lack of repect and care that's coming with it thats more concerning. When it was way more rural, none of this went on.

That’s a shame. I’m sorry your having to put up with this.

Archery1 wrote:If I had the time, I could pull at least 6 posts from just the last year on our community Facebook page where reports of cars being hit, porch post, fences, and whizzing bullets heard through folks' yards - all target/plinker shooting. Lived here 57 years without such carelessness going on. It ain't that hard to know where your bullet is going to stop against what and what's in line between, but I think we have a generation now that doesn't care.

I'm just curious..... whereabouts do you live? Is it near a range, or is it people shooting on public land?

cedarparkdad987 wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:

SQLGeek wrote:That is terrible. What a senseless loss of lives.

Idiots with guns took two innocent lives.

It’s senseless and tragic, but in all fairness to the shooters, it is entirely possible that they were practicing every reasonable precaution and had no idea that someone had strayed into an impact zone, which locals know is a dangerous place to be. It’s a desert. Bullets travel a long way. The victim may have been hidden behind a fold in the earth, and the shooters could have had no idea she was there. She was the young wife of an airman stationed at a nearby AFB, and probably did not have local knowledge of the area in which she was hiking. OR, maybe she did, but just wasn’t paying attention to where she was. We’ll never know, but I hate to attribute idiocy to the shooters, who might have been behaving entirely responsibly. When I lived in SoCal, there was a private 1000 yard range run by a club called “Desert Marksman”, located on BLM land on the Mojave side of the San Gabriel mountains, outside of Palmdale. I never shot there myself, but I had friends who were members. I used to wonder if anyone ever accidentally strayed into their target area while hiking around in the desert, and whether or not shooters would be able to clearly see such a person from the firing line. The club owned or controlled the land the range was on, but they had no control over whatever happened outside the land they controlled......and it being open BLM desert, pretty much nobody else did either other than the odd BLM employee.

I have to disagree. You are responsible for every bullet that leaves your barrel. Thats also the law.

You'll get no argument out of me, and I actually said virtually the same thing HERE:

The Annoyed Man wrote:Under the dictum that you own every round you send downrange, and where it ends up....

I absolutely agree with you, and at no point did I say that a shooter is not 100% responsible for the rounds they send downrange, but I think you're missing my point. That point is that, even when people do their level best to exercise firearms safety, something can still go horribly wrong. THEREFORE, when shooting on public land, it is important for the shooters to have heightened awareness and KNOW what is down range.........AND it is important for hikers hiking into unfamiliar country to have heightened awareness and KNOW what it is they are hiking into. That's not the same thing as laying the blame on the potential victim. But it is the same thing as saying that we should all practice greater awareness.

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY
Rule III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

It's real easy to adhere these rules in the controlled confines of a regular shooting range. And we SHOULD. We also should do so when shooting on public land. But when you're out on public land, and you feel like you just have to shoot, it gets a lot harder to observe those rules with 100% certainty. The reason has nothing to do with how much WE control OUR behavior, and everything to do with the behavior of others which is beyond our control....... like an unseen hiker wearing earth tone colors, wandering into the beaten zone a mile from the firing line, past where you're going to see him/her. It's still our bullet, and we're still responsible for where it goes, but when a human acts like a squirrel diving under the front wheel of a passing Suburban, how much more can you do, except not be there shooting in the first place?

That's why I stopped going to uncontrolled BLM land shooting areas. It made me nervous as heck.

dlh wrote:I will make some general comments which should be common sense to folks on this forum:

1. Shooting ranges have a backstop for a reason.
2. When hunting make it a point to always shoot "down." That is why deer hunters use deer-blinds that sit off the ground. The greater the downward angle of the bullet the less likely you gonna hit something you do not see.
3. Rule no. 1--Safety---Rule No. 2---See Rule no. 1.

Those absolutely make sense - and common sense at that. No argument out of me. Have you ever been shooting on BLM land? I have, and here’s my perception.

The 2 or 3 BLM shooting places I have shot at were not designed as shooting places. They were just open land - usually desert - where people seem to gather to shoot because it’s far enough away from everything else to make it relatively safer than it would be shooting near residences or a town. BUT.... they aren’t managed, like a firing range, any more than the rest of the open desert is managed. Nobody has bulldozed up backstops, probably because they don’t have permission from BLM to “raise a structure” on BLM land.....and even if they got permission, where would they get a bulldozer, and who would pay for that? It’s just random open land, that nobody else is using for any other purpose. The best you can hope for is that the shooters would, by mutual agreement, set up so that there is a hillside or a cliff/escarpment backstopping their shooting area. But of the places I’ve been to, only one of them had hillsides backstopping the shooting lanes. Of of them was “backstopped” by the High Sierras, but they were several miles away. At each location, it would have been absolutely possible for someone, not aware that they were blundering into a live shooting area, to wander in from the sides or the back. There’s no way to control that.

Maybe the answer is for people to stop using unused open BLM land as public shooting areas. But, shooters have been doing this as long as the BLM has existed, and even before then, so this isn’t really a practical solution.

The only possible answer is for shooters to be aware of what might be downrange, and for hikers to pay attention to where they are hiking. In other words, increased awareness all around.

SQLGeek wrote:That is terrible. What a senseless loss of lives.

Idiots with guns took two innocent lives.

It’s senseless and tragic, but in all fairness to the shooters, it is entirely possible that they were practicing every reasonable precaution and had no idea that someone had strayed into an impact zone, which locals know is a dangerous place to be. It’s a desert. Bullets travel a long way. The victim may have been hidden behind a fold in the earth, and the shooters could have had no idea she was there. She was the young wife of an airman stationed at a nearby AFB, and probably did not have local knowledge of the area in which she was hiking. OR, maybe she did, but just wasn’t paying attention to where she was. We’ll never know, but I hate to attribute idiocy to the shooters, who might have been behaving entirely responsibly. When I lived in SoCal, there was a private 1000 yard range run by a club called “Desert Marksman”, located on BLM land on the Mojave side of the San Gabriel mountains, outside of Palmdale. I never shot there myself, but I had friends who were members. I used to wonder if anyone ever accidentally strayed into their target area while hiking around in the desert, and whether or not shooters would be able to clearly see such a person from the firing line. The club owned or controlled the land the range was on, but they had no control over whatever happened outside the land they controlled......and it being open BLM desert, pretty much nobody else did either other than the odd BLM employee.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/17/pr ... oting.html

A pregnant nanny, who was the wife of an airman stationed at Luke Air Force Base, died Monday after being struck in the chest by a stray bullet while visiting a spot in the Arizona desert known to be a popular target shooting area, police said.

Kami Gilstrap, 24, of Goodyear, was roaming the desert in Buckeye, about 30 miles west of Phoenix, on Sunday during a family outing when she was struck in the chest. She was airlifted to a hospital where she later died.

This sounds like it would have been avoidable only by the victim having knowledge that she was straying into a live-fire area, or possibly having signs posted out where she was hiking to notify the odd hiker of what they were hiking into. But even then, a stray bullet can carry for miles, depending on caliber. Plus, if it is a riccochet, who knows what direction it will take off in, or how much further it will fly?

When I worked in the ER, we treated a young man who had been shot in the head with a .308 caliber bullet at a National Forest shooting area by a shot fired from so far off that his friends never heard the shot. They had walked out to their targets and were setting them back up, and they believed they were the only ones there. The working theory was that he was hit by a bullet fired by a deer hunter further up in the mountains. If so, the long odds are that the hunter never knew he fired a bullet that hit another human in the head, and there is no way for sure to prove that’s even what happened. The victim did not die right then from the GSW. Two years later, when I left working there, that guy was still curled up in a shivering ball with no higher order mental functions at all, fighting off a series of pneumonia infections and bed sores.

I’m not sure what could have been done differently in either of these stories, but they are sad reminders for us as shooters to do everything we can to (A) safely backstop our own rounds, and (B) make sure WE are not in a beaten area ourselves when we shoot on public land. I was reminded by the above linked story of this thread: http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=91193.