Search found 3 matches

by Charles L. Cotton
Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:23 pm
Forum: Instructors' Corner
Topic: Pass/Fail
Replies: 47
Views: 16737

Re: Can You

cxm wrote: Anyway, sorry for the unclear post.

Chuck
It was my fault, not yours. The more I read your post the clearer it is that you were not responding to mine. Sorry about that. I too feel like Ayoob's post-shooting predictions may be limited to certain northeastern jurisdictions, and of course California.

Regards,
Chas.
by Charles L. Cotton
Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:05 am
Forum: Instructors' Corner
Topic: Pass/Fail
Replies: 47
Views: 16737

Re: Can You

Chuck:
I'm not sure if this was for me, it I think it is.
cxm wrote:I think you are way too wrapped around lawyer issues... have you been reading Ayoob lately?
I am an attorney and yes I have read Ayoob lately. I've seen nothing to indicate he has changed the position he has promoted for 20 years.
cxm wrote:I'm not aware of any Texas cases that support your theories...
Two points. First, I said I didn't think this was an issue in Texas, except perhaps in Travis County, so the lack of any case on point supports my position on this issue.

Secondly, in Texas Courts, you won't see any opinions unless the case goes to the appellate court and 99% of cases never get there.
cxm wrote:Being a good shot can also be a positive point... responsible enough to learn to shoot well so as to not endanger bystanders etc. etc.
I agree, otherwise my wife and I wouldn’t have taken more classes at Thunder Ranch than I can count. However, that's not the issue. The discussion revolved around the potential in some jurisdictions of having a prosecutor attempt to use such facts as advanced training against someone using deadly force to defend themself. As I said, I don't think this is an issue in Texas.

If you had been in one of my deadly force seminars you would have seen a segment on Myths & Urban Legends In that segment, we discuss unfounded concerns and false “common knowledge� that abounds relating to self-defense shootings.

I can't help but think you misread my post, as you and I seem to agree on every point you raised. The only exception may be on Ayoob's opinion about the likely aftermath of a self-defense shooting. Although you didn't say it, it appears that you feel Mas does not paint a bleak picture for someone shooting in self-defense. He clearly does and has for many years.

Regards,
Chas.
by Charles L. Cotton
Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:18 am
Forum: Instructors' Corner
Topic: Pass/Fail
Replies: 47
Views: 16737

I've tried to stay out of this one, as I don't think there is a single "correct policy" that covers all jurisdictions. However, I want to throw this in.

I put on a few legal seminars every year on the use of deadly force and dealing with the aftermath. My latest one was about 3 weeks ago at Top Gun in Houston. Every time I give one of these, I always get excellent questions on issues such as using hand-loads for self-defense, using a customized gun, taking advanced training (ex. Thunder Ranch), using hollow points, having a laser on the gun, and yes I occasionally get a question about "throwing" a few points on the shooting portion of a CHL qualification course.

My response is that, in my opinion, these issues are not of a realistic concern throughout most of Texas, but may be in other states and could be in Travis County, Texas (Ronnie Earl country!). Almost invariably, I have one or more people in the seminar who have read Ayoob’s books, or attended a class at his Lethal Force Institute, and notes that he vehemently disagrees with my position.

Mas teaches that you will be prosecuted and/or sued in civil court (a/k/a persecuted) if you use deadly force, regardless whether the shooting is justified. He has commented several times, almost with pride, that some people who have attended his classes have made the decision not to carry a gun, because they are more afraid of the legal aftermath than being wounded or killed by an attacker. (That concept is foreign to me, but far be it from me to second guess someone else’s decision on such a personal issue.) Mas resolutely condemns most if not all of the things I believe are a non-issue in most of Texas. I haven’t read it yet, but I received my American Handgunner a couple of days ago and Mas’ article this month appears to deal with using hand-loads in a self-defense shooting and it also appears he’s recommending against the practice.

I could foresee that in certain states, and Travis County, Texas, that prosecutors and civil juries may well take a dim view of someone using hand-loads, taking advanced training, etc. and hold that against them when they vote guilty or not guilty, or vote on a negligence question in a civil trial. I also have no doubt that an argument could be made in Massachusetts or New Jersey that anyone who could shoot 100% on a qualification course should have been able to “hit� the bad guy in a less-than-lethal area; i.e. shoot the gun out of his hand, shoot him in the leg, etc. I just don’t see those as real-world issues in Texas.

So as I said earlier, there are some respected people in the shooting community who feel such issues are a real concern. I acknowledge they may be in certain states/jurisdictions, but not everywhere and I do not believe they are in Texas (except, you guessed it, Travis County!). However, as we Texans enjoy ever-expanding reciprocity rights and travel to other states armed, matters that are of no concern to us here in God’s country could well be determining factors elsewhere.

I have to throw this in about using hand-loads. The one potential problem I can see deals with forensic analysis of the shooting, primarily as it relates to the shooter’s distance from his/her attacker. As I understand it, the CSI types have gotten pretty good at judging distance by the pattern and intensity of the powder burns and fragments. These standards are based upon testing of factory ammo. If one were to use hand-loads with a different powder and/or powder charge, the standards by which the CSI folks estimate range would be inaccurate potentially making it look like you were not honest with the investigators. Of course, you could tell them up front that you were using 230 gr. JHP Golden Sabers you loaded, but even then you could have a problem, if the load consistency was poor and the charge in that particular cartridge was higher or lower then you stated. For years I carried hand-loads for self-defense (all new factory primed brass) and it looked to all the world like factory ammo. I now carry only factory ammo in my defensive guns, but only for the forensic reasons, not because of a fear that someone will argue that I was trying to create a more deadly cartridge.

Folks I have a request. This discussion seems to have resulted in elevated Testosterone levels and since we’re all Alpha males/females, let’s recognize this and try to tone down the horn-rattling and ground-pawing a tad.

Thanks,
Chas.

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