TexasCHLforum.com

DMG wrote:Charles:

I am curious about your advice to roll down your window. Could that not be viewed as escalating the situation, or at least not trying to retreat if your car was otherwise blocked in?

DMG

I agree that rolling down a car window could be considered a provocative action, so that's why I said it was not intended to be a response to Show Killer's scenario. The only point I want to make about car windows is not to plan on shooting through one, especially one on your side of the car.

I'm not going to roll down a car window and expose myself more directly to a potential attacker, unless I feel there is a reasonable chance that I'm going to have to use deadly force. If he has a baseball bat, then he's armed and I'll respond accordingly. That doesn't mean I'm definitely going to shoot, but you can bet the window is going down and I'll be ready of necessary. This presumes I can't simply drive away.

I appreciate TxFire's comments about blunt instruments on safety glass. However, I typically drive a Corvette and moving to the other side of the car isn't an option and I can't afford to give someone unlimited time to keep beating on the window until it finally shatters. Plus, I'm not going to turn my back on an attacker to move, or otherwise put myself in a position where I cannot shoot, in the event he reaches for a gun while I'm trying to climb over a console into the passenger's seat. In a larger vehicle, that may be an option.

Regards,
Chas.

This discussion points out the difficulty in deciding where to draw the "line in the sand." It also points out the extreme difficulty in trying to "discuss" this subject on a forum. It's hard enough to do the subject justice in a face-to-face setting like a seminar where it's easier to add facts and perimeters to the discussion and "what if" scenarios.

There have been excellent points made by several posters as to how fluid these situations can be and how changing just one fact can change the lawful response dramatically. It's not only critical to know when you can legally use deadly force or even threaten its use, it's equally important to know how to explain your actions under extreme conditions.

This thread shows why the "what if" scenarios are an important part of the deadly force seminars I give. It gives us all the opportunity to discuss various factors one must consider before the need arises. If there is sufficient interest, I'll try to schedule another one in the near future. As always, location is a problem with so many of our members living all over the State, but I can do one at PSC and perhaps in another location or two. I don't know the first thing about video conferencing, but perhaps that would be an option as well.

Chas.

llwatson wrote: What did we learn from this? A) ALWAYS CARRY! and B) Remember whose car you are in!

Radio transmission during an "officer assist" call:

Dispatch: 941, return to the station.
941: Negative
Dispatch: 941, return to the station immediately!
941: Negative!
Patrol Lt.: 941, what's the first rule of a gunfight?
941: 941 en route to the station.

Unfortunately, it does happen.

Chas.

Kevin:
I recall this Hale incident all too well. It happened less than 2 months after new CHL's were effective (1/1/06) and the venue was terrible! Dallas PD and Senator Royce West, a former Dallas PD officer, were strongly opposed to SB60, so we knew it was going to degenerate into a media circus. It did. All of the media throughout the state were reporting that a "minor fender-bender resulted into a deadly gunfight" after two men argued and we could only expect more of the same. Not a word was mentioned about Mr. Hale firing shortly before he fell unconscious from the beating. Intellectual honesty has never been a strong point of modern media types.

I may be confusing this with the Sastrup (sp ?) case in Austin where it was presented to multiple Grand Juries, but I believe Mr. Hale's case was either presented to two GJ's, or was there was a full court press by the Dallas County DA's office, at the insistence of the Dallas PD and purportedly Sen. West. I actually believe CHL opponents were glad this man was dead - it gave them a ralling cry.

Regards,
Chas.

This is a general comment and is not directed to Show Killer's scenario.

I know this will sound counter-intuitive, but if there is a chance you may have to shoot, don't roll the car window up, get it down quickly! If you have to fire through a car window, you may well have a face full of glass shards, including in your eyes and/or eyelids.

Chas.