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by Charles L. Cotton
Thu May 25, 2006 11:19 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Poll: Reasons you have not gotten a CHL?
Replies: 273
Views: 63182

propellerhead wrote:Excellent reading. Thank you.

About this broad/narrow view... does this apply to CHLs only? Do the same laws apply to non-CHLs who happen to have a gun in the trunk of their car?
TPC §9.06 (Threats of deadly force) applies to everyone, whether or not they are a CHL. However, the wording of TPC 46.035(a) makes it an offense for a CHL to intentionally fail to conceal his/her handgun. According to the McDermott decision, the only exception this is found in TPC §46.035(h) which states that it's okay to display your gun, if you would have been justified in using (not threatening) deadly force. It can be argued that this provision doesn't trump TPC §9.04, because Chp. 9 justifications preempt all provisions in the Penal Code, but the McDermott court rejected this argument. This is why I feel TPC §46.035(h) should be amended.

Regards,
Chas.

Here is §46.035(h):

(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that
the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed
the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been
justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9. (emphasis added)
by Charles L. Cotton
Thu May 25, 2006 9:52 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Poll: Reasons you have not gotten a CHL?
Replies: 273
Views: 63182

[As txinvestigator has pointed out in other threads, Texas does not have a brandishing statute. There are other statutes to address such actions.]

There was a long and very interesting thread on threatening the use of deadly force when the use of deadly force would not be justified. The thread was prompted by the McDermott case that involved the conviction of a CHL holder for failing to conceal his handgun. Here is a later post of mine in that series.
This thread has been inactive since Dec. 19th, so people may have forgotten the very narrow issues presented. Remember, the discussion centers on two issues: 1) whether TPC §9.04 authorizes a person (other than a LEO) to threaten the use of deadly force by the production of a weapon when they would not be justified in actually using deadly force; and if so 2) does TPC §46.035(a) subject a CHL holder to prosecution for intentionally failing to conceal his handgun if they did so. (The McDermott case upheld the conviction of a CHL under these circumstances.)

Just to make sure there is no confusion, if you would be justified in using deadly force to thwart an attack, then you are justified in threatening the use of deadly force by pulling your gun on someone. Just because you can shoot someone, you doesn't mean you have to!

Back to the scope of TPC §9.04. Between Kyle and I, we have spoken to criminal defense attorneys, prosecutors for various DA’s offices, police officers, judges and a law school professor that teaches criminal law. Everyone Kyle talked with believes TPC §9.04 authorizes the threat of deadly force even when the use of deadly force would not be lawful, if the other requirements of §9.04 were met. (Let’s call this the “broad view.�) The people I’ve talked with fall on both sides of the interpretation. Some accept the “broad view,� while others contend that TPC §9.04 only authorizes the threat of force equal to the degree of force you would be authorized to use; i.e. you can’t threaten deadly force unless you can use deadly force. We’ll call this the “narrow view.�

To complicate matters further, I just received a return telephone call from a lady who is an attorney on staff with the DPS in Austin. She apparently teaches the law portion of the CHL Instructor Certification and re-certification course. She believes the “narrow view� of TPC §9.04 is correct.

I’ve spoken with a lot of very knowledgeable people who have differing opinions on the scope of TPC §9.04. However, if I were forced to choose one on whom to rely, I would have to choose the law school professor. As a law professor, he must remain current on issues such as this one and the professor I spoke with said the “broad view� is very common in the U.S. He also said the “broad view� is codified in the Model Penal Code. That said, he also concedes it’s an open question in Texas, since there is no case law on point, but the express language in TPC §9.04 appears to adopt the “broad view.�

All throughout my deliberations on this issue, I keep coming back to the two hypothetical scenarios txinvestigator and I presented. Mine was the slap in the face in the restaurant and his was the gang members following my wife and I in a theater parking lot. I have presented these scenarios to everyone I have spoken with and we all agree that these polar opposites are troublesome to reconcile. The restaurant scenario was presented to show the absurd result that could occur with adoption of the “broad view� of TPC §9.04 while the gang members in the parking lot reveal a reasonable application of the “broad view.�

The only way I can reconcile the potential abuse of TPC §9.04 with its useful application is much like txinvestigator did, i.e. by incorporating the requirements of TPC §9.31 (force). That is, §9.31 will allow the use force “to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. In the restaurant scenario, a person could not reasonably believe it was necessary to pull a gun to keep a woman from slapping you. Conversely, in the theater parking lot scenario, a person could reasonably believe it was necessary to reveal or even present a pistol to thwart an apparent stalking or impending assault. Beware! This is merely my evaluation and attempt to reconcile differing views on the scope of TPC §9.04. Don’t try to rely upon it!

However, this academic discussion of the scope of TPC §9.04 is even more complicated when we introduce TPC §46.035(a) - Intentional failure to conceal and the McDermott case. The statute and the McDermott opinion expressly state that you are justified in intentionally failing to conceal when you are justified in actually using deadly force.

These few facts are certain: 1) there is no case law in Texas interpreting the scope of TPC §9.04; 2) there is no agreement among experts in the field on the scope of TPC 9.04; 3) it is common in the U.S. for state penal codes to allow the threat of deadly force when the use of deadly force is not authorized, so long as the sole motive for the threat is to cause apprehension that you will use deadly force if necessary; 4) TPC §46.035(a) makes it an offense to intentionally fail to conceal your handgun, unless you are authorized to actually use (not merely threaten) deadly force; and 5) the McDermott Court rejected a CHL's attempted reliance on TPC §9.04.

Whatever the Courts ultimately determine concerning the scope of TPC §9.04, TPC 46.035(a) needs to be amended to include the justification found in either TPC §§ 9.04 (threats), 9.31 (force) or 9.32 (deadly force).

Regards,
Chas.
Here is a link to the entire thread. http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... +mcdermott
by Charles L. Cotton
Wed May 24, 2006 2:01 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Poll: Reasons you have not gotten a CHL?
Replies: 273
Views: 63182

propellerhead:

I hope you didn't take offense at my comment, I was just joking.

One of the best comments I've heard about the varying opinions on carrying a gun came from a CHL instructor. He said some people get a CHL just so they can put a gun in the car when they feel they are going somewhere that worries them. Others on the other end of the spectrum will put their gun on in the morning like they do their watch and never give it another thought, until they take it off in the evening. I fall in the latter category.

My wife and our youngest son each have had to use a pistol to defend themselves; my wife has had to do it twice. No shots were fired and both of them were in an area they considered perfectly safe. It may never happen again, then again it may happen today.

While I enjoy shooting as a sport, I carry a gun for the same reasons I carry a health insurance card and a AAA card. I don't expect to have a medical emergency that will require the health insurance card to be on me, nor do I expect to have car trouble and need the AAA card. But if I need any of the three, they'll be there. While the odds are in my favor that I'll never need to defend my life with my gun, increasing violent crime in the greater Houston area is unfortunately lessening those odds. When I take my gun off for the last time and I go home to my Lord, I hope I will have never had to fire in anger or fear.

All this said, I fault no man or woman for deciding not to carry a gun for whatever reason; it’s purely a personal choice.

Regards,
Chas.
by Charles L. Cotton
Wed May 24, 2006 12:28 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Poll: Reasons you have not gotten a CHL?
Replies: 273
Views: 63182

propellerhead wrote:I had a feeling my post would get a lot of responses. Each response has very valid points and I appreciate hearing those reasons. No one can argue against readiness. :)
Yeah, I was pretty sure you were just throwing the skunk into the jury box. That's an old lawyer's trick of throwing something out knowing it's going to draw an objection and that the judge will sustain it. But once the skunk is in the jury box (the jury hears it), you can't get rid of the smell. Excellent job of doing it, by the way! ;-)

Chas.
by Charles L. Cotton
Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:28 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Poll: Reasons you have not gotten a CHL?
Replies: 273
Views: 63182

Poll: Reasons you have not gotten a CHL?

We are trying to get good information as to why would-be CHL's have chosen not to apply. Please respond to the poll and post any comments. If the poll should have more options, let me know.

I don't know if the software will let someone vote more than once, but if it won't the poll will be useless. I suspect the information we'll get will be from members who talk to others and would be voting for them. Let me know if you can't vote more than once; then I'll delete the poll but keep the sticky.

Thanks,
Chas.

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