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PM has 1/2" shorter barrel and a 1/2" shorter grip. PM9 feels just about the same to shoot as a CW9, really close anyway.

The PM45 is just about the same size as a CW9/P9 in length and grip length, and of course thicker. The thin profile of the CW9 makes it very easy to conceal. I think a PM would be a little easier to conceal but considering I can get my whole hand on the grip of the CW and my pinky hangs off the PM, I think the tradeoff in size is worth it. Plus, the CW series are $100-200 cheaper than the comparable P or PM, and the PMs still have a nagging problem with barrel peening that Kahr seems to be stumped to solve.

SlowDave wrote: Do you have recommendations?

I really like my Kahr. They make a CW40. I would hate to have to shoot that one though. The CW9 has a harsh enough recoil with +P 9mm rounds, I would think a .40 would be a lot to handle.

Hate to tell you SlowDave but I think you may need a smaller pistol as well as an $80 holster.

Anyway I was surprised how well my Sigma conceals with my Crossbreed, and it's a tuckable holster. I don't know where you are located, but you would be welcome to try my old Crossbreed. The new ones are more adjustable. I almost never use it since I carry the Kahr nearly all the time. I wish I had one for my Kahr!

FWIW I didn't change the size of my jeans in order to carry. But with the Kahr and the FIST ultra-thin Kydex holster, the jeans are just a bit more snug than they are without it.

SlowDave wrote:First, great thanks to Mr. 72 and others for clear

You are very welcome.

The belly band I use most covers the trigger, but it's not all that secure. And I wear it high, so removal from the holster is awkward.

IMHO, you need a different holster. Belly band is designed to be worn at the belt line so the presentation of the gun is just as if it were IWB. A Sigma is awfully big to be carried in a belly band anyway but I would certainly consider it, but only as the maximum size pistol I'd carry in that type of holster. After having tried a few carry positions I am a pretty firm believer that for a mid-size pistol like that, 3:00-5:00 for a right hander is ideal if you cannot deal with about 1:00 appendix carry, all IWB unless you are wearing a big cover garment. I really like my Crossbreed for my SIgma.

wrote: I guess we're looking at pretty much the same situations and making different conclusions. I see a guy standing there with a gun pointed at me with his finger on the trigger at 6' away, and I think, no way am I pulling a gun at that moment, 'cause there's no way I'm getting one off before he does and I'm just insuring that I'll get shot. You see the same situation and conclude that you can't possibly stand the time for racking the slide if you're gonna have any tiny chance of getting a shot off in time.

Well, if you are not going to draw in that situation, then IMHO you might not need the gun to begin with. But your carry position (high riding belly band) also precludes one big advantage of something like 4:00 IWB carry, which is the "OK, I'm reaching for my wallet" ruse. I figure it's pretty simple. Once the BG is robbing you at gunpoint, he has already decided you are not armed. Much like my description in the other thread of handling my gun in mixed company at my house without anyone noticing it, I think if the BG is busy watching to see if anyone else is watching his hold-up, and also figures that you are not armed, then when you go for your "wallet" and come up with your gun firing, you are not as likely to be shot as you might think. I also don't think the BG is going to be six feet away from you when he's asking for your wallet.

But still, that one circumstance aside, there are a myriad of other situations that I can think of where the BG doesn't already have the drop on you where I still wouldn't want the time or inconvenience of racking the slide. Given that it's Christmas shopping season, the parking lot robbery is high on my list. So maybe the BG doesn't have a gun on you YET but once you stop, turn around, and they say "your money" and some four-letter words, you pull your gun, and get shot while racking the slide because of course, the BG is either going to run, or he is going to draw his gun which is certainly loaded and ready to fire.

I consider situations where I'm in public and there is a general threat or someone else is being threatened and I don't already have the full concentration (and aim) of the BG. Or in the robbery situation, I'll wait until he turns or directs his attention to someone else, or something, rather than guarantee that I'll take a bullet immediately. He may not, and I may get shot, but drawing at that point has very little chance, so I think I'd risk hoping for a better opportunity. Are these unreasonable situations/approaches?

The first thing you describe is kind of the armed gunman kind of thing, right? Or a bank hold-up or something? Like in the movies? I think that's extremely uncommon and I wouldn't plan for that.

The other thing about being robbed is that I don't think it's true that whether or not you draw is going to increase your chances of getting shot. Your chances of getting shot are already very high if a dude has pulled a gun on you. But I am not an expert in this area and there are many others who are on this forum so I will just try and leave them some room to answer the question.

However, no matter what, I think in this situation, having to rack the slide makes the gun all but useless, and would greatly increase your chance of getting shot.

In the home under a burglarly is where I most don't like the thought of having to rack the slide because it gives away my position which was formerly unknown.

You're thinking of a home-invasion type of burglary? I think the BG would be surprised by your presence most of the time in this case. It'd take a seriously stupid criminal (or one on drugs) to break into your house to steal something knowing you are in there, wouldn't it? However I bet in most real cases, the guy breaking in knows you are there before you know he is there. He's not going to use a battering ram to knock the door down and wake you up. It takes me 5 or more seconds to get awake and get my bearings when the smoke alarm goes off in my house. How long will it take you to get awake, figure out what's going on, and determine there is someone in your house, when they quietly and discreetly open a window and sneak in? Will they not have figured out that you are in there by then? Like when your wife wakes before you and turns on the light, shakes you awake and shouts "THERE'S SOMEONE IN THE HOUSE"? That's how it'd be in my house :) I'm hoping the BG either flees right then and there or I had better already have a gun in my hand.

At this time, I'm not real comfortable with escalating the situation on the hopes of being fortunate.

I guess maybe that's the big difference. Once someone has demonstrated their willingness to do me physical harm, I am not going to assume they are content to stop doing me harm until I am dead, or until they have been forcibly stopped.

but also don't think I would draw when someone already has me at gunpoint. I'd be interested to know if the group feels that drawing in that situation is a good idea (seriously).

Well every situation is different, and maybe there is a chance to draw and maybe there is not. But I think the odds of there being a chance to draw and rack the slide without getting shot at are almost zero. But there's no way to know. One thing is for sure, it's faster to not have to rack the slide, so just based on simple math, it can't be worse to be carrying with one in the chamber.

in a robbery or assault, if the BG gets distracted for just a moment or goes to another victim, it might provide enough time to have a reasonable chance of getting a shot off *if there's one in the chamber* but not otherwise. Also need to think about the level of risk of carrying with one in the chamber. An emotional "feeling" about the level of safety is really not sufficient. But it's hard to quantify the risk level of various approaches. Thanks for the input!

I think you nailed it right there. If you had a holster that you knew was secure in protecting the trigger, then you would probably not be concerned about it. Also if you had a carry position where you knew you could draw quickly and without giving away the fact that you are pulling a gun, then you might reconsider your chances of getting to your gun in time to prevent yourself from getting shot at or robbed.

I have considered a belly band but I would use it basically as a substitute for having to wear a belt to carry (under conditions which I now carry my SmartCarry ... and I don't really like the SC very much). Like with running shorts, etc. But I don't think I would bank on it as my primary means of carry if I was carrying something as big as a Sigma. If you can conceal the Sigma in a BB, then you can probably conceal it in a normal IWB holster and improve your draw, retention and trigger protection.

I carry both the CW9 and the SW9VE loaded with a round in the chamber (usually I carry the Kahr). Trigger is the only safety.

Now, Mr. SlowDave, I will respond to your question regarding reasoning. I have a Sigma like yours (only 9mm) and my Kahr has the same type of operating principle (DAO, no safety, not cocked unless the trigger is pulled).

First of all, I will address the safety of the guns in question. These guns were designed to be carried this way. They have no external safety of any kind. They are perfectly safe in this condition as long as you are not pulling the trigger. In the case of a Sigma or a Kahr (NOT a Glock), the striker is not cocked back until you begin to pull the trigger. On a Glock, the striker gets cocked part-way on recoil so it's kind of "half cocked" all of the time while Kahr and Sigma are not cocked. This is truly DAO and is like carrying a hammer-actuated pistol with the hammer down. These guns have a long, deliberate, and rather heavy trigger pull. It would be exceedingly difficult to get the trigger to pull while the gun is being carried, and I think it would be absolutely impossible if the gun is carried in a decent holster that covers the trigger. The gun is holstered with no tension on the striker so even in the event of a malfunction, it will not fire. You have to pull the trigger all the way back to get it to fire, period.

[Now I will get on the soap box for just a minute. IMHO a Glock with a 3 lb competition trigger is not safe enough to carry this way. Other DAO-like pistols that are holstered with the striker under tension and with light triggers may also not be safe enough for my tastes to carry without a manual safety. IMHO the hard trigger of the Sigma is a good thing in this case.]

So the question is, what risk are you concerned about with carrying your Sigma chambered? Do you not trust your holster to keep things out of the trigger? Or are you concerned that you are going to have the pistol out of the holster for some reason, and you may have a ND while it's unholstered? Maybe you are concerned that the gun is going to wind up in someone else's hands and it seems that the fact that it is not chambered is an extra margin of safety in that case? I think it's important to understand this so you can find a way to either ease your mind, or upgrade your carrying conditions or habits so that you are confident that your gun is being carried safely.

OK, now from a practical matter, you asked if we could describe a situation where you wouldn't have time to rack the slide. Frankly when I run scenarios in my mind where I would ever have to use a gun, I can think of very few where I would have time to rack the slide on a pistol. If I have that much time, I have enough time to get away without shooting, in most cases. In fact, most circumstances where I think you would need a gun, I think you will be lucky to have enough time to draw. The very reason I am carrying a gun is because of these split second situations where escape is not an option and I only have seconds to defend my life. So I chose guns, holsters, and carry methods that are compatible with my philosophy: my gun needs to go bang as fast as I can get it drawn and pull the trigger.

Let's just look at what are the most common self-defense scenarios that may involve your use of a gun, which would include aggravated assault, robbery, or burglary. I think even though the statistics for aggravated assault show it is much more common than robbery, I think most CHL holders are probably not at as high a risk of aggravated assault as the general public mostly because we are aware of our circumstances and will be more likely (IMHO) to avoid a situation that would result in an assault. But anyway, in the case of aggravated assault or robbery, you are likely either being assaulted or at gunpoint by the time you know you are being assaulted or robbed. You probably will not have any warning. If you have warning, you are going to avoid it! These are the most common reasons you would need to use your gun and IMHO it is almost useless if you have to rack the slide. Maybe you are knocked to the ground, punched, or already at gunpoint. It's not "seconds count", but fractions of a second can be the difference. I don't think you will have time to rack the slide and you will be fortunate to have time to draw and fire.

In the case of burglary, well you are going to be involved in a burglary. Your active involvement in protecting yourself and your home from a burglary in progress will manifest if you are at home during the burglary, or if you walk in on the crime in progress. If you are at home, you may either be asleep or awake. If you are at home, and awake, then you will have time to rack the slide and load your gun. If you are at home and asleep, your first awareness that you are being burglarized may be when you are awakened at the point of a gun. Again, like a robbery, you will be lucky to even get to your gun in time. If you walk in on a burglary in progress, you may or may not have time to rack the slide on your gun, depending on whether you walk into the door aware that you've been burglarized or if you come into the house and look up and find a BG standing right in front of you.

So IMHO, the odds are not in your favor if you are expecting to have the time to rack the slide on your gun. In fact, I think the odds are not in your favor, period. Once you have become selected by the criminal as his next victim, then you are in trouble from that moment forward. Having a gun improves your odds. Having a gun that you cannot fire without racking the slide first, IMHO, only improves your odds by some very small amount.

I am sure Excaliber and others will step in and correct me where I am wrong. This topic gets discussed here and on other gun forums quite frequently, but I still think it is important to talk about. We all develop different opinions of what constitutes a safe carrying condition based on many factors, but I think we need to be aware of the potential impact of the effectiveness of the use of our guns when we may need to use them. In the end, the reason you carry a gun is to defend your life, your property, or the lives of others under the highest conditions of stress and risk. You are not going to be sitting in the living room of the BG with your gun on the coffee table when he walks in like Jimmy the Tulip. This is the reason I didn't buy a gun with a manual safety and why I wouldn't recommend one to a new shooter, since it's another thing you have to learn to do. I think pulling a gun, aiming and pulling the trigger are relatively natural things to do that you will do under stress with a minimum of practice or training, but turning off the safety or racking the slide are going to take far more training to become habit under all kinds of stress. Maybe if you are undergoing daily training like a LEO or military (or a mall ninja, DIY militiaman, etc.) you will make this a habit but for suburban guys like me, simple is best, IMHO.