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by Excaliber
Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:37 pm
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Post-incident survival - in public
Replies: 47
Views: 8851

Re: Post-incident survival - in public

baldeagle wrote:
Excaliber wrote:It's definitely a good idea to work through the details before you find yourself in an actual situation.

In the interests of continuing plan refinement, if the BG is between you and the approaching police, and the BG selects that moment to initiate an attack on either you or the police, which of you can safely fire without endangering the other?

Consider also that, if you fired on the bad guy, both the police and any witnesses would in all likelihood see what appears to be you shooting at the police.
{{{Sigh}}}... thanks a lot, Excaliber. :biggrinjester:

This is a lot harder than I thought at first.

Let's see...I don't want to lose sight of the BG. I don't want to get in his way if he gets up and escapes. I don't want him to attack me again. I don't want the police to mistake me for a BG and shoot me. I can't trust 911 to convey the correct information to the responding officers. This is a dilemma wrapped in a conundrum.

The guy that was shot six times while holding the BG at gunpoint had his back to the officers. Apparently that's a bad idea, even when your wife tells the officers that her husband is the one with the gun, please don't shoot him. So I think I should be facing the officers, at least enough that they can see my hands and my gun, but I clearly cannot even appear to point my gun in their direction. So, if possible, the entering officers should be at 90 degrees or less to me, with the BG in view but not with the officers in the line of fire. If possible, I want the officers to see my strong hand and the fact that my finger is not on the trigger. The gun needs to be pointed toward the floor and directionally away from the officers.

Am I getting warmer?
You're welcome. :lol: And yes, you're getting much warmer. :thumbs2:

Here are a couple of thoughts that may advance the discussion.

If possible you want to see the officers before they see you so you can position yourself properly. You definitely don't want to have a gun in your hand when they first approach unless that absolutely can't be avoided, because as we've all seen, lots of bad things can happen from there.

A position 90 degrees off their expected approach path and not in line between the BG and their line of approach is just about ideal, but remember there may be more than 1 viable way to get to you from where they are, and multiple responding units may well come from multiple directions.

Outdoors, consider relocating to a nearby position behind improvised cover (mailbox, light pole, tree. concrete trash container, vehicle, etc.) with 30 feet or more distance between you and the downed BG. This makes it difficult for even a determined BG to attack you more quickly than you could respond and makes it viable for you to safely reholster your gun while still keeping the ability to redeploy it in time if the BG should renew his attack.

In an indoor situation with other people around, you might consider asking a store clerk, manager, etc. to lock the entry door to prevent other folks from walking in and to meet police at the door if you can't do that yourself to provide basic info and point out who is who. This also has risks, so if you decide to go this way, tell them what to say if you can.

If for some reason you're caught in the open, consider increasing the distance further and positioning yourself so the BG will have to crank around to figure out where you are. This buys reaction time, and BG's have just as hard a time shooting accurately as the range increases as you do. This should still allow you to reholster with reasonable safety while retaining the ability to respond if necessary.

If you can't reholster (as in the case of someone who's on the line with 911 with a cell phone in one hand and wearing one of those floppy holsters that collapse when the gun comes out and needs two hands to get the gun back in), you might consider putting the gun down but within easy reach. That way you can simply step back away from it with your hands raised and in view when the police arrive with little risk of creating an apparent threat profile.

If you can make the 911 call, it's advantageous to stay on the line with the dispatcher and provide details on who is where, what you and the BG look like, and, if your gun will still be in view, how you're managing that so responding officers will know what to expect as they approach. Any sounds related to the incident will also go on the911 recording, and this may be helpful as long as you don't blurt out something that's not.

Raising your hands with palms out and fingers spread to a position clearly in view and away from your body and loudly proclaiming that you are the "victim" or "complainant" and the man on the ground is the "suspect" in a (fill in the type of crime) who needs medical attention (if he's been injured) should get things off on the right foot.

It's a good idea to pre discuss with your attorney how much you should say about how things got to that point before deciding how much detail to provide to investigators before you have an opportunity to talk to him about the specifics.

There are too many potential variations in circumstances to come up with a prescription that'll always work, but thinking some of the easily foreseeable sets through ahead of time will give you a repertoire you can draw on when and if you need it.
by Excaliber
Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:37 am
Forum: General Texas CHL Discussion
Topic: Post-incident survival - in public
Replies: 47
Views: 8851

Re: Post-incident survival - in public

baldeagle wrote:
chasfm11 wrote:
mgood wrote: If he's on the floor, injured, it may be difficult to justify shooting him again. So you may be standing there with a gun on him. You may be afraid that if you put your gun away, that this person may suddenly decide to continue the fight, but equally afraid that if you don't put your gun away, the police will shoot you when they arrive on the scene. I think that's what this discussion is about.
Yep, that is exactly it for me. Pardon me if I have more than a little reservation that me standing there with gun still pointed at the BG when the LEOs show up will not go well for me in several ways. Our daughter has been a police dispatcher in a local town in the DFW area for several years. I'll simply say that not all dispatchers are top performers and that not all messages delivered via 911 phone calls are correctly communicated to the responding officers.

So, hypothetically, what would you use as the criteria for adding more lead to the situation if the BG does fall to the ground and initially doesn't move. As I weight the risks of a) maintaining a continuing cover, b) withdrawing far enough that a firefight doesn't erupt before the LEOs get there when the BG surprisingly is up and moving around and adding enough "insurance" to the situation that will later get me a long term in prison, none of the options look very good.
I'm still formulating plans, so this is open to corrections, improvements, derision, etc.

I think the best thing to do is position yourself so that the BG is between you and whatever direction the police would be arriving from. You want the officers to see both you and the downed BG when they arrive. Until the police arrive, I would keep my gun at the ready, trigger finger on the slide in the safe position, muzzle pointed at the ground. If the BG wakes up and becomes a threat again (moves toward me, grabs his gun, whatever, I shoot him again. If he attempts to escape, I let him go, but only if he doesn't present a threat to anyone else in the house. As the police are arriving, I prepare to holster my gun and raise my hands, palms facing the officers.
It's definitely a good idea to work through the details before you find yourself in an actual situation.

In the interests of continuing plan refinement, if the BG is between you and the approaching police, and the BG selects that moment to initiate an attack on either you or the police, which of you can safely fire without endangering the other?

Consider also that, if you fired on the bad guy, both the police and any witnesses would in all likelihood see what appears to be you shooting at the police.

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