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by Excaliber
Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:04 pm
Forum: New to CHL?
Topic: Non-lethal ammunition
Replies: 36
Views: 7381

Re: Non-lethal ammunition

glock27 wrote:my instructor taught us if you pull the gun out, you better kill them. one story is better than two.

and plus if they live they will probably sue you. another point of view is the bad guys parents or whoever could file a civil suit on you for some retarded reason. but criminally you are in the right to kill given the correct personel defense situation.
If your memory is accurate, your instructor worded his lesson poorly at best, and following that advice can get you into deep kimchee.

IANAL, but my reading of the Penal Code is that you are only legally allowed to use force to the degree necessary to stop the threat. If the bad guy is still alive when the threat ends, you go deep into felony territory if you continue to shoot.

There's a pharmacist in Oklahoma about to go to trial for exactly that. According to published reports, his initial shot to the head of an armed robber appeared to be justified but the five additional rounds he put into the prone and reportedly unconscious suspect were sufficiently outside the bounds of legitimate self defense to put him in the defendant's seat for first degree murder. You can read about it here.
by Excaliber
Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:25 pm
Forum: New to CHL?
Topic: Non-lethal ammunition
Replies: 36
Views: 7381

Re: Non-lethal ammunition

BroTyler wrote:My point is simply this: I was asking about non-lethal ammunition for previously mentioned reasons. I would still only pull the gun in an event that justified lethal force, I was simply trying to figure out what protects the family and myself from bogus repercussions.

I'm not here to start an argument. I believe firmly that we should be allowed to carry as we do, but I'm disgusted by the after-the-fact suits. As mentioned here previously also, one case in particular for me is that of the pharmacist who finished off (wrongly) a disabled BG. The family was on the media immediately after the fact screaming that their boy, who attempted to rob a pharmacy with a ski mask on, would never have done anything to deserve this, etc.

From what I've gathered here, the forum consensus is that non-lethal carry is not recommended, and again, I respectfully thank you all for your responses.

For what it's worth, anyone who carries without worrying about the repercussions of the use of deadly force is either lying or fool-hardy, I believe. I would hope that all of you, to at least some degree, think about the after-effects of shooting someone. I don't mean in reference to the BG, but in reference to your family and yourself. Frivolous lawsuits can shut down a career and a family.

Of course I understand the point that a bullet from a BG can end your life faster than a lawsuit, but that's not the point I'm arguing. I would much rather be alive to face the suits than dead and out of debt. I would just like to learn as much as I can to ensure that a thug's family doesn't attempt to use me as a cash cow if I ever have to draw.

Does that make sense? I feel like I'm being reasonable.
I understand what you're struggling with, but you're missing something. While it is certainly reasonable to consider consequences, it's equally important to understand the realities involved or you reach conclusions that don't correspond to what happens in the real world. When dealing with self defense issues, that can be fatally disappointing.

As bdickens said, a shoot is either a good one or a bad one based on the specifics of the threat situation you faced, the fact that you shot at all, and when you stopped shooting. The ammo used isn't germane to that determination.

However, it is germane to whether or not you can successfully stop a deadly threat. Contrary to what you see on TV, real people often don't stop what they're doing even when they're shot with full power hollowpoint defense ammunition. Sometimes they don't even notice. I have a picture of one armed suspect who absorbed 39 rounds of full power 9mm police ammunition before he stopped being a threat.

If the situation you're facing doesn't require firing deadly ammunition to stop an immediate deadly threat, you have no legal or moral justification for firing a gun at all.

If the situation does require stopping a deadly threat at short range to save your life right now, less lethal ammunition is highly unlikely to do that in time to be of any use to you. If that's what you load with, there's little point to carrying a gun at all.

I wasn't being critical when I suggested you should sort out these issues in your mind before carrying a loaded firearm. I made that suggestion in the hope of keeping you out of situations with only one very brief opportunity to get it right and heavy irreversible consequences that it looks like you haven't yet fully come to terms with.
by Excaliber
Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:35 pm
Forum: New to CHL?
Topic: Non-lethal ammunition
Replies: 36
Views: 7381

Re: Non-lethal ammunition

BroTyler wrote:Hey everyone, just got my CHL today. I appreciate being armed, but it seems like it's still very difficult to justify even the most justifiable of shootings. We've all read case law and seen court cases that have gone one way or the other, but I feel like if I'm ever given reason to pull the trigger, my career as a health professional could grind to a quick halt.

I was looking at the Taurus Judge as a possible daily carry, and I know one of the selling points is its ability to utilize different kinds of ammunition. Would it be a terrible idea to load the first few shots as ratshot or something similar? And do you face more court cases/charges if the offender survives (after being hit with non-lethal ammo)?

Loading "less lethal" ammunition in a personal protection gun is a lot like putting square wheels on your car so you won't go over the speed limit. It might meet that goal, but it cripples its utility for its design purpose as well.

If you have doubts about using deadly force for whatever reasons, I would suggest that you don't carry a deadly weapon until you resolve those issues.

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