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Bulldog1911 wrote:

Excaliber wrote:I would choose a Glock, XD, or S&W M&P and practice most heavily with the 1911.

You can even get an M&P with a thumb saftey so that you have the same motion as the 1911

Some of the XD's are available with a safety as well, but it works the same way as the 1911's.

Whether the safety is present or not, the downward motion used in wiping off the safety will do no harm.

fm2 wrote:

A-R wrote:

canvasbck wrote:I would like to see the video from when he was working with his Glock earlier in the day. I would be willing to bet that he had been getting away with pre staging the trigger prior to leveling the weapon. When he switched to the Kimber which has considerably less travel in the trigger and likely a lighter pull, his bad habit of pre staging early finally bit him. While the change in release mechanism from switching holsters was a possible contributing factor, I would venture to say that the main failure was an inherantly bad habit of putting his finger inside the trigger guard before the weapon was pointing at his intended target............but not because of the serpa release.

and I have some experience with this (thankfully not with a double-ended bullet wound in my leg) ...

I had an ND at a range once while doing some shooting drills from low-ready. Had done a few strings with my Glock, then buddy offered to let me try same string of fire with his Kimber ... BANG! ... bullet into the dirt a few inches in front of the shooting bench

And THAT is how I discovered that I was staging my Glock trigger at the range. Thankfully I was following the other 3 rules.

That's why I recommend people pick a particular action (single action, double action, striker fired, etc..) and be consistant with it for a chl.

That is excellent advice.

If you do eventually decide to use more than one type of action, it is best to select types that are complementary and not contradictory, and practice most extensively with the most complex type.

I know that's confusing, so here's what it means in practice:

If I decide to carry a 1911 and later decide I have situations where a polymer frame pistol would serve better (e.g. in a wet environment), I would choose a Glock, XD, or S&W M&P and practice most heavily with the 1911. The reason is that the precise grip needed to depress the grip safety and the motion to wipe off the thumb safety as the gun comes on target will not cause any issues with a gun that doesn't have those features. My training is consistent and I won't have any significant adaptations I would have to remember in a moment when I've got too much to think about already.

I would not choose an S&W 5906 and carry it with the decock lever in the safe position because that would require me to wipe the lever UP instead of down as on the 1911. I would be creating a highly likely failure point if I did.

I also would not pick a gun that has the European style magazine release at the heel of the grip or holster systems that require different complex motions (e.g. a Level II Serpa and a Safariland 6380) for the same reasons.

Heartland Patriot wrote:

Keith B wrote:This is a typical accident error chain.

He mentioned that the holster he was using prior had a release that is located in the same location as the 1911 safety, so in his inattention to the type of equipment he was using and switching to a different holster and gun within a short time, he errantly released the 1911 safety in holster (error chain link 1 (changing equipment quickly) and error chain link 2 (inattention to the new safety location)

Next when releasing the catch on the Serpa, he failed to keep the finger parallel to the firearm as he drew it out of the holster and allowed the finger to curl into the trigger guard. (error chain link 3)

Lastly, I am going to guess his 1911 has a very light trigger. I have seen many 1911's with the triggers adjusted so light and with such a short pull that they go off when you breath on them. This may be great for target shooting from a ready or low ready position, but it's a major ND waiting to happen if drawing from the holster. There needs to be some resistance to your trigger finger when you are fast drawing so you KNOW your pressing the trigger to fire. (error chain link 4 and completed chain)

So, bottom line, I appreciate the guy posting this as it is very educational, but in his own words, it was his fault due to negligence over several areas. Had he even broken the chain at one of these areas, the accident would not have happened.

We learned this same sort of analysis in the USAF...chain of events leading to accident...remove one link, the chain is broken, no accident. And we were taught to look at a process to try and prevent accidents by looking for this sort of thing. I'm not saying absolutely everything can be done that way, but in a event that involves a process such as you describe, I think you are spot on.

I agree, with the further refinement that one should strive to remove as many potential failure points from the chain as possible so that if a single failure does occur, it doesn't produce a disaster.

This is the concept behind the 4 Rules.

fm2 wrote:

Excaliber wrote: I have been very interested in the reported disparity in ND rates between military users in combat environments and events that occur in training here in the states. I don't have any hard data on this, but I suspect the almost problem free use of the holster in the combat environment is that rapid draw of a pistol is relatively rare in military combat.

I too think the context & dynamics between military and chl carry is much different.

I recently heard that the Marines were going to a Safariland ALS holster as a replacement on the next cycle. The change was attributed to the problem that Andy noted, gun locked into holster due to debris. But, that problem was documented when those holsters were new on the market. I think the Safariland ALS is a MUCH better choice if you want a retention holster.

Excaliber wrote: In most cases the handgun is carried as a secondary weapon and rarely drawn suddenly in action as long as the primary long gun is working. More often it is drawn purposefully and not in a hurry in preparation for a CQB situation where the long gun isn't a good choice. This usage pattern involves different time frames and consciousness dynamics. It circumstantially virtually eliminates the unintended and unnoticed actions that crop up when the same equipment is used in a rapid draw and quick engagement environment where things other than the draw stroke are going on (e.g. moving targets or a requirement to engage targets in a particular sequence) and further diverting the user's attention as he attempts to execute something the hasn't fully learned at speed.

In force on force evolutions, I've seen people fire training rounds into the deck, etc.. when they are asked to multi-task in a dynamic environment.

I'm not at all surprised.

Different things happen when folks try to force themselves to perform a task much faster under stressful conditions, particularly when that task has to be performed in response to a randomly timed stimulus which may come as a total surprise.

austinrealtor wrote:Excalibur and Keith B ... thanks as always for the enlightening posts

My pleasure!

TX Rancher wrote:It's possible he just has a training mistake...

I've seen other folks do this. They use the safety on a 1911 as an on/off switch and keep their finger inside the trigger guard.

He stated that he had been practicing with a different retention holster where the release is in the same general location as the safety on his 1911. When he switched holsters and weapon, he still reached for the release as if it was where the 1911 safety was and inadvertently switched the safety off. Here's where he made the first major mistake. Instead of halting the drill and re-applying the safety and then starting again, he continued with the drill, with the safety off.

This is where the training mistake could come into play. If he inserts his finger into the trigger guard as part of his draw (which it looks to me is what he did) it would take very little pressure to make the pistol go bang with the safety off.

He could have been doing this for months or years without an issue since the safety is on. But in this particular case, there was no safety to protect him.

I have tried to get students to stop doing this, but I'm not always successful. If they've spent a lot of time drawing that way, they do it without thinking. I've even had some say "What difference does it make where my finger is as long as the safety is on?" or "I've drawn this way for years and never had a problem...don't worry about it, I know what I'm doing".

I sure hope his leg heals and he works real hard at changing his draw!

I strongly suspect this is the case. The movement required by the Serpa release mechanism likely aggravated an already existing issue.

When he put this habit together with the other elements of the error chain Keith described, the ND became virtually inevitable.

Spanky wrote:Am I the only one here who just completely laughed their butt off.................

I'm pretty sure you are.

Most folks have seen this as an excellent opportunity to learn from another shooter's experience which came at considerable personal cost, and which he was generous enough to share so others could be spared consequences similar to the ones he suffered.

austinrealtor wrote:

Excaliber wrote:

austinrealtor wrote:This ND was obviously caused by the inherently unsafe design of the 1911 style pistol



But in all seriousness, listening to the shooter's own analysis of how/why this happened, this type of situation is why I've always been a bit leery of cross training with a 1911-type gun and a gun with no thumb safety (like a Glock or DA revolver) - two different types of muscle memory and battery of arms. Throw in two distinctly different types of retention release devices on what are otherwise similar holsters and you've got a lot of different movements to keep straight between the two set ups.

Edited to add: and kudos to the guy for posting this video on YouTube so we all can learn from his mistakes

I would attribute 80% of this incident to trying to work at speed with apparently insufficient training in two substantially different gun and holster systems that require substantially different movements to perform the required task.

Various types of failures are often the result when one tries to take task execution beyond a conscious step by step process and work from "muscle memory" or whatever one prefers to call a trained stimulus / response sequence under these circumstances.

This holds true with any psychomotor skill, but when guns are involved, the results are often serious and permanent.

Excaliber, thank you for the comment. It may just be that I'm a bit too loose with my choice of words "muscle memory". I'd appreciate some elaboration if you don't mind sharing on the differences - as you understand them - between "muscle memory" and "step-by-step process" .... I've always sort of used the terms "muscle memory" to refer to a learned and applied step-by-step process that just becomes "second nature" after enough repetitions - thus muscle MEMORY. Are you saying that this phenomenon itself is dangerous or are you saying that muscle memory and step-by-step process are distinctly different phenomenon altogether?

"Muscle memory" is an often heard informal term that is usually used as a rough equivalent to the more formal "unconscious competence." The latter term is used to describe the stage of training when one is able to execute a task in response to a stimulus without conscious thought about the steps involved. "Instinctive reaction" is another informal term often used in much the same way.

The stage prior to this level of skill is "conscious competence" wherein the individual knows what he needs to do and is able to successfully do it when he actively thinks through and pays attention to each step as he carries it out. I see this as roughly equivalent to the concept of "step by step process."

A lot of folks tend to rush the transition between these two stages of training. When they can successfully execute a task at the conscious competence level a couple of times, they immediately jump to trying to execute it at the unconscious competence stage. This often goes awry because the steps haven't been "burned in" to the brain's programming thoroughly enough to be reliably executed, and pieces of other prior training or even bad habits (like putting the trigger into the triggerguard at the top of the vertical draw stroke) can creep in. Because they're being executed at speed and without conscious attention to what's happening, they often go unnoticed until they result in something memorable - like the event seen in the video in the OP.

I have a couple of Serpa holsters and while I don't consider the design inherently flawed, I do think they require significantly more training effort to be used well than some other designs. I can see that the inward motion of the finger to release the gun can carry over into an unconscious early entry of the trigger finger into the triggerguard and I have seen that happen on the range when a shooter attempts to move from step by step to a rapid draw / fire sequence. That's a clear indication the shooter needs to back way off on speed of execution and work hard to eliminate the unwanted motion and more deeply embed the safe and proper steps into his mind. This is done by thousands of carefully and properly executed step by step sequences with conscious awareness of each step.

I have been very interested in the reported disparity in ND rates between military users in combat environments and events that occur in training here in the states. I don't have any hard data on this, but I suspect the almost problem free use of the holster in the combat environment is that rapid draw of a pistol is relatively rare in military combat.

In most cases the handgun is carried as a secondary weapon and rarely drawn suddenly in action as long as the primary long gun is working. More often it is drawn purposefully and not in a hurry in preparation for a CQB situation where the long gun isn't a good choice. This usage pattern involves different time frames and consciousness dynamics. It circumstantially virtually eliminates the unintended and unnoticed actions that crop up when the same equipment is used in a rapid draw and quick engagement environment where things other than the draw stroke are going on (e.g. moving targets or a requirement to engage targets in a particular sequence) and further diverting the user's attention as he attempts to execute something the hasn't fully learned at speed.

I am very conscious of the fact that anything that occasionally happens on the range is about 10 times (an arbitrary number) more likely to happen on the street during a violent encounter, and, since I am a nonmilitary user, I am now seriously considering replacing my own Serpa holsters with a different design.

austinrealtor wrote:This ND was obviously caused by the inherently unsafe design of the 1911 style pistol



But in all seriousness, listening to the shooter's own analysis of how/why this happened, this type of situation is why I've always been a bit leery of cross training with a 1911-type gun and a gun with no thumb safety (like a Glock or DA revolver) - two different types of muscle memory and battery of arms. Throw in two distinctly different types of retention release devices on what are otherwise similar holsters and you've got a lot of different movements to keep straight between the two set ups.

Edited to add: and kudos to the guy for posting this video on YouTube so we all can learn from his mistakes

I would attribute 80% of this incident to trying to work at speed with apparently insufficient training in two substantially different gun and holster systems that require substantially different movements to perform the required task.

Various types of failures are often the result when one tries to take task execution beyond a conscious step by step process and work from "muscle memory" or whatever one prefers to call a trained stimulus / response sequence under these circumstances.

This holds true with any psychomotor skill, but when guns are involved, the results are often serious and permanent.