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troglodyte wrote:Fickman - Don't discount the cheap, sheet metal safes (Stackon I think). They can be had for fairly cheap and will do the job of discouraging youngsters. I used one for years until I could get a "real" safe. I use the cheap one to store ammo in now.

Good idea. . . I'll check into this.

poppo wrote:Well, after reading all 7 pages of this thread, I've changed my mind about a dozen times .

lol!

I've talked myself out of and into things just participating in it.

Cutter wrote:I usually only have one firearm at a time ready for protection, (sometimes 2) but I always have at least one. I carry at home 100% of the time. Even if my rifle, shotguns and spare sidearm have a cable lock, then one sidearm does not and is on me and ready to go. I didn't mean to insinuate that all of my firearms were locked except at night. Just any firearm that is not actively in my control at the time.

Well, until I get the gun safes, I'm considering adopting your cable lock procedure. It'll require more active management of the firearms on a daily basis, but as the kids get older, it's wise to do.

LarryH wrote:

fickman wrote:The DAO revolvers and DA/SA Sig are all kept well out of reach at all times - no way they can stack stuff high enough to reach them.

Do not underestimate how ingenious a couple of children can be, even at that age. If they want something bad enough, they'll find a way to get it.

Thanks for the word of caution. . . I realize you have to give it since you don't know me personally and the extents I go to in order to guarantee that the kids are safe. I said earlier, I assume nothing and take nothing for granted.

FWIW, an ingenious kid can also open a safe - either by watching over your shoulder, sheer statistical luck, malfunction of the device, finding the key, etc. They could also take one off of your person if you fell asleep deeply enough.

With safety, I take no chances, but you can never guarantee 100%. What you're doing is taking a situation that has less than 1% chance of happening, combining it with a situation that has less than .001% chance of happening, adding another layer on top of it that has less than .000001% chance of happening, so and and so on until you're comfortable with the odds. Then, you add on the layer of being responsible to watch, oversee, instruct, teach, caution, etc.

The chances are calculated by looking at obscurity, complexity, difficulty, ability to perform a precise number of actions in sequence, etc. on one side combined with ability, desire, and an element of randomness on the other.

As Charles Heston said, if the gun isn't loaded (and I'll add - accessible), then it's not for home defense. I'll remind you that home invasions don't only happen when everybody's tucked away into bed for the night.

Even taking the advice of using a cable lock except at night (which doesn't help you if there is a daytime home invasion or other emergency), the following highly unlikely situation could occur:
*REDACTED FOR PRIVACY*

As she grows older, her abilities will increase, and this scenario will no longer be sufficient. As I said, in the next year I plan to get two pistol safes and am constantly on the lookout for a larger safe to hold long guns. As she gets older, we'll also start introducing her to the firearms and teaching her safety, avoidance, and how to get an adult if she finds one without touching it.

So - anyway - I think long and hard about gun safety, and I don't take it lightly. This is just to put your minds at ease as I think my first statement might have come across as either cavalier or given the impression that I underestimate her abilities. The nice thing is that with this community - we all learn from each other and borrow ideas from others when we find something that works.

jimlongley wrote:Understood, but I would not bet that an ingenious kid couldn't rack the slide on a shotgun.

Agree. . . I make no assumptions and take nothing for granted.

This summer when my wife is off (she's a school teacher) and the kids are home all day, the chances of my daughter slipping out of eyesight for a minute will increase. I'll probably go to putting the firearms up during the day and putting them back under / near the bed for nighttime. . . . unless I can afford a good safe with quick access by then. We'll probably get a small nightstand safe for the 1911 in the next few months, but (this is very pertinent to the "Why a Home Defense Shotgun?" topic) a shotgun is much harder to secure without impeding quick access.

(Anybody notice that used safes cost as much as new ones? They don't depreciate much.)

The DAO revolvers and DA/SA Sig are all kept well out of reach at all times - no way they can stack stuff high enough to reach them. I'll need to get a nightstand size safe for the Sig (kept in my home office) in a year or so, too.

jimlongley wrote:Why endanger yourself and your family by keeping your gun in anything less than condition one?

Because, with my current setup, having a shotgun in condition one would endanger my family.

I don't have a safe yet, and there's no way my 21-month old daughter or 4-month old son can unlock the slide, ratchet the 12-gauge, turn the safety off, and pull the trigger. I can do this entire sequence in under two seconds. She couldn't even pick up the shotgun if she were to stumble upon it (which I have taken several measure to ensure she won't).

Same with the 1911 - she could turn that safety off if she somehow got a hold of it, and the trigger would be too easy for her to pull. Most likely, it would be with the grip against the floor and a little toddler thumb in the trigger area - which would mean the barrel is pointing right at her. There is zero chance of her racking the slide - my wife can barely do it (we're working on her technique).

The shotgun is under the bed in the bedroom. We keep a gate on the door to keep the kids from being able to go in there. We also always watch her while she's playing downstairs so she won't have access to our bedroom. If somehow she did, however, there are too many hurdles for her to overcome to discharge the current HD firearms. In condition one, she could - in theory - accidentally stumble upon the sequence to get it done. She's too young to memorize and apply the four rules. . . we're working on the alphabet song right now.

We plan to continually upgrade and adapt our home safety plan as the kids grow. . . when they reach the right age, they'll get repeated firearm safety lectures. When they reach the next right age, they'll get repeated firearm safety demonstrations. When they reach the next right age, they'll get repeated firearm safety practice.

If we introduced it to her now, she'd be curious and interested by it. Even if we taught her it was a "no-no," it'd be on her radar. She could go to it when being mischievous no matter how strict we are. Right now she doesn't even know they exist, and she doesn't have any toy guns to play with.

jimlongley wrote:

Stupid wrote:Shooting a semi auto is simpler and requires less training - this is an indisputable fact, which was my point

I dispute it, it's not a fact. A pump is no harder to operate, load, or keep on target than a semi-auto with the benefit of being able to rack the slide to clear jams. Nope, not indisputable, nor a fact.

Using the same logic, Stupid (er. . . your s/n, not slinging mud here), everybody should have all double-action revolvers instead of semi-autos, since they are the simplest and require the least training of all and are actually the most reliable in the largest range of circumstances.

KD5NRH wrote:The simple answer from Clint Smith: http://www.gunsmagazine.com/webblastTRDS.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now I really want to head out to the land with my wife's single-shot 20ga and see how fast I can get a second shot off.

Cool clip. . . I'd be interested to try my dad's single-shot 16 gauge and see what I can do. Oddly enough, that sucker kicks more than my 12 gauges. . . if you can find the 16 ga ammo.

Stupid wrote:Still not convinced? Just think hard about why all the armies of the world transited from single shot to bolt action, to semi-auto to full auto on their rifles. Why do they choose full auto over semi over single shot? Three reasons: speed of shooting, ability to keep the gun on target and simplicity of operating the semi and full auto action.

Most serious hunting and skeet/trap competitors I see use double barrel shotguns, not semi-autos. Even the Olympians all used over/unders. The simplicity of these is great, but they lack capacity and maneuverability for home defense.

I think the movie thing has been covered.

Rifles vs. Shotguns is like apples and oranges. I have a family member on a gang unit for a large city PD in Texas who also works with SWAT. . . their shotguns are all Remington 870 pumps. His two brothers are Marines and have spent a lot of time in Iraq. When they use a shotgun, it's a pump (I believe the military version of the Mossberg 590).

The issue with semi-auto shotguns is reliability. You need as close to a 100% guarantee that it will cycle properly without jamming the one time your life depends on it, and most semi-auto shotguns can't provide that level of confidence. I wholly agree that semi-auto pistols and rifles are perfectly reliable and benefit from the attributes you listed above when properly maintained, but they are a different beast. You are skipping an important step if you worry about the speed and accuracy of the second shot before making sure the gun will even be ready for a second shot.

Stupid wrote:For those who still like to use shotguns since having a gun is better than nothing, at least get semi-auto - there are many reasons why a semi-auto is so much better than a pump.

One problem. . . most semi-auto shotguns are unreliable during an actual emergency to cycle properly. They are sensitive to the ammo (need lots of recoil) and angle. I'd never trust one for life-and-death situations.

fredtubbs wrote:

fickman wrote: 2) Somebody is considering telling me I can't have one, which made me want one more.

Exactly. I'm right there with you. Although I don't think Barry and his friends are going after shotguns first, but they are coming.

I read language in two bills just before Thanksgiving. . . at least one of them is currently in committee. . . both of them cited "short-barrel", "high capacity", and "non-sporting" shotguns on the list of banned firearms. One bill left the decision of classifying "sporting" and "non-sporting" to the Attorney General.

Sure, these bills could get watered down before getting to a final vote, but the home defense shotgun is squarely in the sights of the Antis. I purchased my Mossberg 500 and an AR-15 after reading the bill. They'd both been on my wishlist but leapfrogged a few other things in priority once I saw the bills. (I almost wondered whether fighting the constitutionality of any bill would be easier that suggesting to my wife that we delay replacing our bedroom furniture for another year. )

If anybody knows of a store in North Texas with the Mossberg 500 Home Defense / Field combo in stock, please PM me.

They do sell Mossberg 500 Home Defense / Field with both barrels. . . a 28" barrel for hunting/skeet/trap and an 18.5" barrel for home defense. Two shotguns in one. . . not bad. Agree with earlier poster who said that the extra barrel costs around $100.

I wouldn't tell anybody who is happy with their handgun for home defense to get a shotgun instead. I got a tactical shotgun for a few reasons:

1) In an emergency, I'd like my wife to have the Kimber 1911 .45 ACP that stays beside the bed. The Sig .40 and the two .357 magnum revolvers are often in other locations depending on where we've been and where we're going the next day. The last time we thought we had a real break-in occurring, I grabbed the hunting shotgun and found many corners too difficult to effectively navigate. . . this will vary based on the floorplan of your house. Now I can leave her in the bedroom or send her to the kiddos room while I check the house. If one of the other pistols is nearby and I have time, I might take it as a backup.

2) Somebody is considering telling me I can't have one, which made me want one more.

3) It was relatively inexpensive.

4) I love shotguns.

5) In a real situation, I plan to rack the slide before I leave my bedroom. . . so if I find a BG in my house, the BG doesn't get the "warning" unless he were close enough to hear me discover his presence. While I'm racking the slide, my wife is chambering the Kimber. If I find a BG, I have some pretty serious stopping power (2 3/4" #4 buckshot).

6) Handguns are harder to aim precisely in an emergency in the dark with your adrenaline pumping. You have to aim the shotgun, but the "data plots" are father apart, giving you less variance in the final destination of your ammunition for each degree of error or movement while aiming. I'm all for handgun proficiency, but a lot of people have sub-compact guns for concealing. There are many reasons most LEO use a full size sidearm instead of a sub-compact (capacity, recoil, fit-in-hand, acceleration of bullet in longer barrel), but one of them is that the sights are farther apart and give you a better percentage chance of being on-target. This point is going to be an element of fact and an element of personal-preference.

7) It's simple and reliable.

I guess that's it. Again, I'm not advocating this position for everybody, but this is my home-defense plan.