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fickman wrote: ↑Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:47 am This is a mess. I am extremely unsympathetic to the shooters even if there is an avenue by which a shrewd attorney may cobble together an effective defense. Their temperaments subvert everything we are trying to accomplish on this forum.

BEGIN WILD SPECULATION BASED ONLY ON CURRENTLY AVAILABLE PUBLIC INFORMATION

Were I a juror, I would find them guilty of murder.

I feel strongly that they were not standing their legal ground, but rather that they entered the alley to be the armed enforcers of the neighborhood dumpster rules. They go into the alley with the intent to enforce their side of the dumpster dispute, they refuse to deescalate / walk away / defer to governing authorities, and throughout the video - they make it apparent that they want the fight and are looking for an excuse to make good on their threats. I'd go so far as to say they went into the conflict thinking they could bait him into crossing their line in the sand. These two wanted to shoot somebody and (again - my own speculation) probably thought they'd gotten their legal defense airtight by trying to use all of the self-defense magic words. I wouldn't be surprised if they both have years of posts on AR15.com about how tough they are.

I hope they get the longest sentence possible; if nothing else than for the message it will send to other mouth-breathers who think their gun elevates them to a new power strata. I'll be disappointed if they get away with lower charges.

Failure to retreat can't be considered, by law. I'd go so far as to say that they were familiar with Howard's history of violence which would make it dangerous to even turn their backs on him. Also, that would be a good reason why the elder Miller would be inclined to come out with a handgun in the first place (assuming he doesn't habitually carry outside his home, as I and many other people do), and why the younger would go inside to get the shotgun.

That said, I'm not convinced they weren't out to shoot someone, regardless of actual justification, and I have a hard time finding sympathy for anyone involved in the mess.

Beiruty wrote: ↑Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:35 am Note for al: If some deranged person shouted shoot me, shoot me, please do not comply.

Yeah I neglected to stir up trouble on that point. Howard says something like "Go ahead and shoot me!" Doesn't that mean that TPC 9.31(b)(3) applies to the actions of John Miller, making Howard's act of throwing the bat unprovoked assault?

Press release from the Abilene popo:
http://press.abilenepolice.org/index.ph ... ead&id=710

A relevant excerpt:

It was determined that John Miller and Michael Miller discharged firearms at Aaron Howard after engaging in an argument about the placement of a box spring in the alley, killing him. When the first shots were fired, Aaron had a bat in his hand and was approximately seven feet from John Miller, who was the closest to him. When Michael Miller discharged his shotgun and John Miller fired the final two rounds from his pistol, Aaron Howard was unarmed. Both the Millers admitted to shooting Howard, who died after being transported to Hendrick Medical Center. Aaron Howard’s wife/girlfriend, Kara Box, recorded the incident on her cellphone and Detective Jordan Brown reviewed this video. He believes it is apparent from the video, combined with the interviews of the Millers, that they were tired of their neighbor, Aaron Howard, acting out and yelling and threatening them verbally. They brought out firearms during this argument and both Millers stood in the alley as Aaron Howard got more and more upset. As soon as he raised the bat while approximately seven or more feet away from John, John shot him.

I am not convinced that Howard was "seven feet or more" from the video. It looks like he was closer and had turned and stepped away as he was shot. In fact, the video shows the person holding the camera appearing to suddenly make a full turn (incidentially, showing the legs and feet of a fifth person who I haven't seen mentioned) which might be from Howard pushing Box aside to approach John Miller (that is entirely my supposition and not clearly shown or disproven by the video).

Also, the release seems to try to make a point of saying that Howard was unarmed when Michael Miller shot him, but he was unarmed because he threw the bat at John Miller, and Michael Miller appeared to pull the trigger less than a tenth of a second after that. Outside of the issues of provocation and ... everything else, I think that Michael Miller's actions in response to Howard assaulting his father are otherwise clearly justifiable. I would expect the chief and DA to have some trouble if they focus on that aspect.

I've been trying to read up on this one, and it keeps getting more convoluted. We do have a little more information than just the video, but it's far from a whole picture. But, for myself, I really hope that I would have figured out a way to get out of that situation before it got to the point it was at when the video started.

Like people said here, Howard had a long history of anger issues and seemed to not take his happy pills regularly. His fiancé knew it (and made sure to state it in an interview) so she's as much a party to getting him killed as anyone else is for egging him on.

Doc Hollandaise apparently did not originally come out with a shotgun. His father did seem to come out with a handgun, but one could imagine that it might have been concealed, even in the very limited clothing that he had available for it. From what I've read, Michael saw how the encounter was going and went inside to get the shotgun. Given Howard's documented history of irrationality and assaults, I find it hard to blame either of the millers for wanting to have a firearm on them, especially when Howard was armed with a bat.

On the other hand, a detective who interviewed them after the incident claims that they admitted to wanting to have a situation where they could shoot Howard.

And what makes it really fun - the chief of police gave a press statement later that day (or maybe the next) addressing the shooting then running off on a tangent talking about how their 911 operators were overwhelmed with calls that morning and they had to call more officers on too. IF the millers had tried to call for law enforcement intervention (and I've seen no claims that they did or did not make such a call), it might not have even made it to an operator, let alone to an LEO who would have responded to the scene in a timely fashion.

But there is so much going on with this incident that I really don't want to say that I think anyone is especially at fault or innocent until a lot more facts are found and publicized.