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Skiprr wrote:

G.C.Montgomery wrote:Following the "letter of the law" then yeah, it's a failure. However, you'd have to be an automaton incapable of exercising good judgement not to see that as competent shooting.

I can understand the failing grade on that attempt, but disallowing him another attempt for qualification? That's the truly bizarre thing.

He can kill a cockroach 3-of-3 shots at sub-300 yards, but just because his scope got bumped on the trip back from Africa he can't even adjust and shoot again? I mean, come on...

And G.C., many thanks for your clarification of the activities at Top Gun. Their Website should be as clear as your response. Looks like there are more options there than I thought.

To be fair, it's certainly possible this was an isolated incident. I haven't tried to qualify at ASC myself but, I've had several friends who reported bad experiences with ASC management and staff. Of course, I also know there are people who can recall bad experiences with management and staff at Top Gun. So, before we start a boycott of ASC based on third part info, I recommend you guys check the place out for yourself.

TxD wrote:A little "Devil's Advocate" here.

The stated test was to hit a 6" target with 3 shots = Failed.
However, as pointed out, a very impressive failure.

On a personal note, the shooter should pass the test if what is being tested is competency and safety at long range.

Like I said, I understand the policy. Following the "letter of the law" then yeah, it's a failure. However, you'd have to be an automaton incapable of exercising good judgement not to see that as competent shooting. But, I can't dictate someone else's policy. It's their choice, and their revenue loss because I don't believe the guy has been back since.

Houston1944 wrote:American Shooting Center has a good membership plan. I am not sure what the individual membership for Rifle & Pistol is but I think it is around 200 bucks a year. That allows you unlimited access to all Rifle and Pistol ranges, subject to their normal hours.

Also subject to the weather...Couldn't resist. I think American is a great outdoor facility. It's the only public range available with distances over 100 yards anymore. Carters moved their 200yd berm up to 100rds a couple years ago.

Oh, and it's not exactly unlimited access for the rifle ranges. For liabilty reasons, you have to qualify to use the 400 and 600yd ranges. IIRC, you have to shoot three rounds into a six-inch bulls-eye from a cold bore at 300yds. I don't generally have a problem with demanding restricting access to only qualified shooters.

However; a friend, a professional gunman at that, took a rifle out that hadn't been shot in over a year since going to Africa and posted a 1-inch group about an inch, low and left of the bulls-eye. I'm no expert but I'd call that an obvious shooter who simply needs to re-zero his scope but is otherwise fully qualified to shoot at 400-600yds. ASC didn't see it that way and he was not allowed to requalify.

Skiprr wrote:G.C., I know I can check some of the info on the Top Gun Website, but since we're on a roll here, can you tell us a bit about the sessions? Is Thursday more like a mini-IDPA/IPSC run, and Sunday a Hoffner's instructional session? Are Tactical Tuesdays (7-9 p.m.) a come-as-you can thing (for those who may have work commitments that get in the way some weeks)? Should we contact you or one of the names mentioned directly to setup an orientation prior to showing up on Tuesdays and/or Thursdays/Sundays? And are the "event" fees in addition to normal range time charges?

And can I build any sentence today that isn't interrogative?

Geez. Don't mean to pummel you with questions, but this was something I'd intended to look into this year, anyway, and since the subject has come up publicly, we might all benefit from the info...

All the clubs are largely a come as you are affair. The IDPS club is more of an IDPA/IPSC group that shoots Thursday evening (7-9pm) and Sunday afternoon (4-6pm). If you want to shoot from a concealment rig for the street, that's great. If you show up with a $5,000, race rig, that's cool too. The fee for this club is the normal $15 range fee but we aren't charged by the hour.

Tactical Tuesdays is also a come as you are affair. And as mentioned earlier, it's an open forum. One week may be a lecture and the next may be a high volume burn. It's whatever the guys want to work on each week. So if next week, you want to concentrate on shooting while moving, that's what we'll do. This particular session costs $20 per person. The extra $5 helps buy equipment like the props and targets we use like bowling pins, spinal sticks or other items. Unless you are already and experienced IDPA/IPSC shooter and/or you've been through training comparable to John Farnam's Advanced Handgun class, then you probably do need to contact me about orientation for the above groups.

Brian Hoffner's Monday, Wednesday and Sunday groups are instructional sessions and part of his SoSu program. Monday evenings are Shotgun Elite Team drills. Wednesday evenings are Pistol Elite Team. Sunday is SoSu, integrating knife, gun and hand. Brian's program is seperate and not affiliated with Tactical Tuesday's in any way. With the Elite Team drills, you'll be practicing the same fundemental drills each time but, they are drills that help you master running the gun. IIRC, the tuition for Brian's program is $25 per person. You only need to show up and pay the tuition to get involved with Brian's program because they concentrate on their basic drills.

Liberty wrote:

G.C.Montgomery wrote:
Top Gun has no problem with your buying your ammunition at Walmart or Academy so long as it meets SAAMI specifications. We do not allow exposed lead, round nose or semi-wadcutter bullets except with .22 rimfire cartridges. We also do not allow aluminum or steel cased ammunition. These practices are getting to be fairly standard through out the industry.

Only hollow point or frangibles? Ammunition must get pretty expensive to shoot. The prices in Houston might make it worthwhile, to get a membership in PSC or a drive down to the Texas City Municiple Range.

I wasn't clear. When I say round-nose and semi-wadcutter, I'm talking straight lead bullets. Jacketed or copper-plated, round nose and semi-wadcutter bullets are fine. Now if you want to shoot jacketed hollowpoints, and I do, that's fine too.

I don't own a stake in Top Gun and I make nothing from helping with the clubs so don't think I'm arguing against a PSC membership. PSC is an awesome facility and I've been thinking of joining both PSC and the Impact Zone myself. The type of work I usually need to do can't be done at Top Gun except with the clubs and I certainly can't do medium range (300yd) rifle work at Top Gun.

Stupid wrote:Thanks, GC. Last time I was at Top Gun was about 4 years ago. I had a heart attack after I paid some top $ for their premium super ammo.

What does tactical Tuesday do?

Tactical Tuesday is mostly intended as an open forum and every Tuesday is something different. As an example, tomorrow night, we are going back to fundementals and high volume shooting as we practice shooting "spinal sticks." For the Spinal Stick drill we suspend 1x2s at the back of the range on a string. You will be expected to shoot off three to four inch sections of the stick at distances up to ten yards. If you miss, you get to run. The lesson is, shoot straight, or get in shape. We also have an honor system and you are expected to do 10 pushups for every miss sometime between the night you miss and the day you die. Next week may be something totally different and we try to discuss what we'll do next at dinner after we leave the range or in the forums at http://www.tcht.net.


We aren't a competitive club in the traditonal sense. There's a friendly drive to be "the best" but, our club is largely intended a place to have fun while practicing and exchanging ideas we've learned in training with others. Most of us don't have time and/or money to spend a few weeks with the Smiths every year or rub elbows with the likes of Farnam, Hackathorn or Howe. But those who do bring their knowledge back to the group to "spread the sunshine." I would suggest that Thursday and Sunday are a place to apply the lessons you might learn on a Tuesday night.

Venus Pax wrote:

G.C.Montgomery wrote:Oh, one more request...Don't point guns at us, we take it personally and we will not react well.

Sounds like someone's had some experience with either ill-tempered or absent-minded shooters.

As I mentioned in another thread, it's when working at public ranges that I sense a higher than average probability of getting shot.

About a year ago, I had someone who claims to be a devoted Pete Tarley student, draw and point her cocked-n-locked 1911 at me as she turned to engage targets down range. Our attempts to correct the problem were only met with accusations of putting her down because she's a woman. That incident with her was followed not more than two minutes later by a guy I have since seen working as an RO at a sanctioned IPSC match. He too claimed to already know everything already but had horrible trigger and muzzle discipline...Last time I checked, these are concepts you're supposed to master in Gun Safety 101. And then he had the nerve to get upset when we called him on it!

Stupid wrote:...require everybody to use their special gold bullets which cost about $10/bullet.

Being that I occasionally work and teach at Top Gun I can say with a certain degree of confidence that this is false. Back when Anthony Saragusa owned the place, people were required to shoot lead-free or other "clean" ammo. But it has been more than two years since the new owners abolished this rule.

The primary exception to special ammunition is rifle ammunition. We will allow 5.56NATO/.223 and 7.82NATO/.308 only if you are using frangible ammunition. The reason the rule still applies to these calibers is the baffles and side plates at the back of the range are not designed for rifle velocity ammunition. However, we've found that these parts of the backstop will handle frangible rifle ammunition just fine.

Now I've got no problem admitting to a charge of $15/person/hr. Yes, it's a lot of money if you are the type who spends hours at the range. That's why they offer a membership that allows you to shoot all you want and get free targets for $100/month. If your really shoot that much, it pays for itself. Each additional person you put on your plan costs and additionally $10. Also, hourly range fees are reduced to $13.50/hr if you are buying ammunition at the counter.

Let me also say this. The primary reason I started shooting at Top Gun was air quality. I spent years shooting at the 59 Gun Range on Mondays and Tuesdays. While I surely miss shooting with those guys, I don't miss blowing all the lead out of my nose at the end of the night. Nor do I miss the irritated lungs and the pungent smell of cigarettes that permeates your gear. Additionally, Top Gun's fees are comparable to similar indoor ranges in the Houston Area. Sportsman's Outlet in Humble, for instance, currently charged $12/hr. I'm told Shooters Station in Conroe is actually a nicer range but they too charge about $15/hr.

You can always go to Marksman, 59 Gun Range or the Memorial Oaks Shooting Club but the facilities aren't nearly as clean. The trade off is they tend to be significantly cheaper. The last time I was there, 59 Gun Range was charging $9/person but you could shoot all day. Of course, you might have to shoot your way out of the parking lot.

Top Gun has no problem with your buying your ammunition at Walmart or Academy so long as it meets SAAMI specifications. We do not allow exposed lead, round nose or semi-wadcutter bullets except with .22 rimfire cartridges. We also do not allow aluminum or steel cased ammunition. These practices are getting to be fairly standard through out the industry.

And finally, speaking of the clubs...If you want to join us for Tactical Tuesday or shoot the Thursday/Sunday night club, you need to see me, Larry Phiel, Dale Cheesman or Gregg Garrett. We'll teach you the "secret handshake" and make sure you are up to speed on our procedures. Our only request is that you check your ego at the door, come with an open mind and a desire to learn. Oh, one more request...Don't point guns at us, we take it personally and we will not react well.