TexasCHLforum.com

cb1000rider wrote:

Robert*PPS wrote: Keep in mind that those of us that are talking about not using deadly force to recover property are not saying we would not use deadly force in self-defense. In fact, I'm resolved to use deadly force specifically for that reason, as I am sure the others are as well.

Correct. I'd use it only as a last resort in defense of myself or family. I would not use it after the incident is de-esclating to protect some some amount of property.
It's just a personal choice due to a litigious society.

Jumping Frog wrote:

baldeagle wrote:If you're confronted by a BG with a gun, how can you possibly know if he's going to use that gun on you until he's out of sight. You can't. By not drawing and firing, you are assuming that he's going to be a GG and not shoot you. Isn't that a pretty faulty assumption given that he's already proven he's a BG? If someone confronts me with a gun and I have the opportunity, I'm shooting. I'm not going to give him the leeway to decide to turn around and shoot me as he walks away.

I think the thing people are missing here is the level of danger. Because you are a GG you assume everyone thinks that way. They don't. Assuming they do can get you shot, even killed. Is it worth risking your life to assume the BG is actually leaving and won't turn around and shoot you? I'd rather be in court defending myself for having shot a BG than in the hospital or the morgue because I thought he was leaving and wouldn't use the gun I already know he has to shoot me.

People should also keep in mind the numerous reaction time studies made by the Force Science Institute and other law-enforcement focused research groups that have scientifically proven in statistically valid studies that a BG running away can turn and shoot back before a law enforcement officer aiming a gun at them can respond. Under almost any scenario, action consistently beats reaction. With drive by and other senseless shootings literally commonplace, I am not going to entrust my well-being to a proven, violent, armed felon. If I can legally shoot before he does, I want my action to beat his reaction, not the other way around.

As far as the "$10,000 in legal fees" argument goes, there can be no defense attorney present in a Grand Jury proceeding. So for a "good shoot" that is cleared by the Grand Jury, it is hard for me to see how you get past some initial consult billing. The attorney is going to say, "keep your mouth shut". Certainly, if charges are brought, actual defense costs mount quickly. But in this instance, the police have already indicated they do not expect charges to be brought and the Grand Jury would seem like a formality.

There are also costs to consider on the other side of the coin. I've heard from Dave Ramsey-type people that the average identity theft incident creates about 600 hours of labor on my part to clean my identity theft issues. Even if that estimate is high, there are real costs associated with letting someone drive away with one's wallet.

Carry-a-Kimber wrote:

jmra wrote:

MechAg94 wrote:If I am robbed of wallet and truck:

1. Insurance will likely only pay current value rather than replacement. Not the same as getting a new one.
2. I have other stuff in my truck that I would prefer not to lose.
3. I would need to replace my DL and CHL and credit cards and ATM card.
4. I would also need to cancel my credit cards and prepare to be a victim of identity theft.

I am sure there are more. Just pointing out there is a heck of a lot more to dealing with theft than just calling your insurance agent.

but not nearly the aggregation this guy will end up going through.

If they have his vehicle, they probably have his insurance card. If they have his insurance card they have his address. If they have his vehicle keys they probably have his house key. You do the math. Killing the driver is cheaper than having armed felons come to my house while I am stranded at some McDonald and my wife and child are at home.

cb1000rider wrote:

jmra wrote: And then I'd have to think....
They will now have the keys to my car AND the front door to my home AND my wallet containing my home address where my wife is in the bathtub and my children are sitting in front of the TV. They could immediately drive the mile to my house in my own car outrunning me and the police there by 30 minutes busting in the door and demanding the PIN for the debit card they found in my wallet wrapped up with my last ATM receipt which contains an attractive balance on it. Their process of extorting the PIN number from my family I'll leave to your imagination. They could even hang back a day or two and follow my wife to the grocery store or they may even opt to take me for the ride to ensure the transaction gets completed and no preemptive phone call home gets made.

That's pretty extreme. I agree with you that it is possible. However, if I wanted your address, all I need is your name or your license plate number. And if I'm willing to do armed robbery is having a lock on the door (that I now have keys to) going to make all the difference between doing it and not doing it?

How much money can you extract from a debit card? Probably whatever your daily max is.

I dunno.. I just don't think it's very likely. I agree with you that it is possible and if you had those immediate lines of thinking I'd understand the "shoot" decision, but it's not for me. I'd still worry about going bankrupt over some BG's mother suing me over excessive use of force or some other claim that an attorney would take on contingency (no cost to the BGs mom). Just invoking the legal process is punitive in terms of cost, so shooting is an absolute last resort for me.

jmra wrote:

n5wd wrote:Final point: jmra, (IIRC)... the reason I pay the [Pre-paid legal service] insurance is to help take care of some of the 'hassles' in case I ever have to use a firearm to defend myself or others. Nuff said.

I hope you never have to use it. I for one am not putting my future in the hands of these people.

esxmarkc wrote:

jmra wrote:My thinking;
They are in my car leaving, I'm waving adios.
Why? Because the deductible on my car is a whole lot less than what I'm going to spend on legal fees (both criminal and civil).
Think about it. Even if charges aren't filed you have to believe that the guy is going to want some kind of legal representation to make sure all the Ts are crossed and all the Is are dotted. And there will be a civil suit, even though without charges it should get dismissed, there will still be expenses.
Not to mention the fact that I'm not going to want my family riding around in a car a guy bled out in. And there will still be expense (insurance deductibles) in repairs to the vehicle (probably expensive when you factor in damage and hazmat clean up).
Then there is the whole psychological aspect of taking a life...
Yep, you can have it.

Then you're not thinking deep enough.

As they asked for my keys and my wallet and my hand reached around for my wallet it would then be a mere 2 inches away from the handle containing 11 rounds of really nasty .40 cal ammo.

And then I'd have to think....
They will now have the keys to my car AND the front door to my home AND my wallet containing my home address where my wife is in the bathtub and my children are sitting in front of the TV. They could immediately drive the mile to my house in my own car outrunning me and the police there by 30 minutes busting in the door and demanding the PIN for the debit card they found in my wallet wrapped up with my last ATM receipt which contains an attractive balance on it. Their process of extorting the PIN number from my family I'll leave to your imagination. They could even hang back a day or two and follow my wife to the grocery store or they may even opt to take me for the ride to ensure the transaction gets completed and no preemptive phone call home gets made.

I DON'T KNOW what these thugs are thinking or are even capable of. WHAT I DO KNOW is that with some degree of luck I can take control of the situation and I can END it all here. I am thinking that whether I lay in a pool of my own blood and spent brass or I stand triumphant I will end it here - legal fees and deductibles be dammed. My family will be safe. I would have to thank my blessings of how lucky it is to be me in this situation instead of my wife or daughters dropping off the DVD.

So the point where they are in my car leaving and I'm waving adios is never happening. You'd have to rewind it back to the moment before they are in my car and they are standing there in front of me and they have now given me an excuse to reach behind me for my wallet.

So.... My thinking;
Is 11 rounds going to do the job? Who should I concentrate on first? Where is my cover? Is the getaway driver going to bolt - or is he a threat? Remember how to clear a jam. My extra mag is in the door pocket. Remember what my instructor taught me: fight like a trapped animal to because my family is counting on me.


ETA:

My Apologies jmra. I was composing this while you posted - and others posted similar thoughts to mine. I get your point and agree.

So how about this... I'd be thinking:

IF ONLY I'D KEPT MY NETFLIX SUBSCRIPTION NONE OF THIS WOULD BE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW!!!

baldeagle wrote:If you're confronted by a BG with a gun, how can you possibly know if he's going to use that gun on you until he's out of sight. You can't. By not drawing and firing, you are assuming that he's going to be a GG and not shoot you. Isn't that a pretty faulty assumption given that he's already proven he's a BG? If someone confronts me with a gun and I have the opportunity, I'm shooting. I'm not going to give him the leeway to decide to turn around and shoot me as he walks away.

I think the thing people are missing here is the level of danger. Because you are a GG you assume everyone thinks that way. They don't. Assuming they do can get you shot, even killed. Is it worth risking your life to assume the BG is actually leaving and won't turn around and shoot you? I'd rather be in court defending myself for having shot a BG than in the hospital or the morgue because I thought he was leaving and wouldn't use the gun I already know he has to shoot me.

n5wd wrote:Final point: jmra, (IIRC)... the reason I pay the [Pre-paid legal service] insurance is to help take care of some of the 'hassles' in case I ever have to use a firearm to defend myself or others. Nuff said.

Purplehood wrote:The law allowing you to use Deadly Force does not REQUIRE you to use it.

Only the individual standing there in the guys own shoes, experiencing what he experienced can truly know if it was appropriate for HIM to go ahead and shoot.

In this case I feel that the shoot was justified...but I also believe that I would have supported him if he had decided not to shoot.

longhorn86 wrote:

C-dub wrote: Just avoid the entire Houston area.

+1

MechAg94 wrote:If I am robbed of wallet and truck:

1. Insurance will likely only pay current value rather than replacement. Not the same as getting a new one.
2. I have other stuff in my truck that I would prefer not to lose.
3. I would need to replace my DL and CHL and credit cards and ATM card.
4. I would also need to cancel my credit cards and prepare to be a victim of identity theft.

I am sure there are more. Just pointing out there is a heck of a lot more to dealing with theft than just calling your insurance agent.

rotor wrote:I have never had to make the decision before so I can not say with certainty what I would do but if three men tried to rob me at gunpoint, steal my car-wallet and phone and I had the opportunity to draw my weapon and stop them I believe I would. Considering that they were armed I think my life is in danger until they are well gone from the scene. Obviously in this case they were not well gone from the scene and very well may have shot the good guy if he didn't act first. I don't believe this was one of those chase after a speeding car and wounding the bad guys as they were a block away. And when they have your wallet and phone they also have your ID and can still do a lot of financial damage and even worse, they know where you live.

rotor wrote:

jmra wrote:My thinking;
They are in my car leaving, I'm waving adios.
Why? Because the deductible on my car is a whole lot less than what I'm going to spend on legal fees (both criminal and civil).
Think about it. Even if charges aren't filed you have to believe that the guy is going to want some kind of legal representation to make sure all the Ts are crossed and all the Is are dotted. And there will be a civil suit, even though without charges it should get dismissed, there will still be expenses.
Not to mention the fact that I'm not going to want my family riding around in a car a guy bled out in. And there will still be expense (insurance deductibles) in repairs to the vehicle (probably expensive when you factor in damage and hazmat clean up).
Then there is the whole psychological aspect of taking a life...
Yep, you can have it.

So you think the good guy in this case made the wrong decision.
I didn't say that at all. What I am saying is I wouldn't have shot them just in order to recover my car. If I felt that they were going to do more than take the car then I would have taken action. Perhaps that is the reason the victim acted - we don't know his mindset yet and may never know if he chooses not to share it.
Just let the bad guys get away, come back next week and kill someone else, maybe they have already killed someone and you don't have to worry about anything more than the deductible on your insurance.
I am neither a judge or an executioner. You have no way of knowing that they have killed anyone anymore than I know that they haven't. In 35 years of driving I have used my insurance exactly twice. Once for a broken window and once for hail damage. I would not have any remorse using my insurance if my car was stolen. Would you?
Maybe they shoot you as they drive away as we know they were armed.
Maybe the round I fire goes thru the BG and hits a bystander across the street. I'm not in the habit of dealing with maybes. I analyze the situation as time allows and make the most educated decision I can make at the time. If I felt that my life was still in danger and firing my weapon was my best alternative, I would not hesitate to do so. If other options existed that I felt would ensure my safety, I would pursue those options.
I think the good guy made the right decision and I would venture that most people on this forum agree.
At no time did I say he made the wrong decision. If I were in his shoes and I believed that the suspects intended to eliminate me as a potential witness, I would have taken whatever steps required to ensure they didn't succeed. In this case it appears the victim was well within his rights to fire even if he didn't feel his life was in danger (again we don't know if he felt that way or not). If he didn't feel his life was in danger and fired in order to recover his property, I don't fault him at all. He assessed the situation and determined the level of risk vs reward he was comfortable with and acted accordingly. I am simply saying that for me the risk associated with taking that action far outweighs the reward of recovering my property.

bizarrenormality wrote:I would hate to be one of those people gunned down in cold blood after complying with their demands.