TexasCHLforum.com

03Lightningrocks wrote:Maybe we should give handdog the benefit of the doubt folks. Obviously the judge agreed it was a bum rap. Anyone who claims they have never accidentally exposed their weapon, even for an instant, does not carry very often. The exception might be folks who carry in a purse or fanny pack. This could happen to any one of us and it really is baloney acting as if the guy who got treated like he lives in Nazi Germany deserved to get rousted by an over zealous cop looking to earn brownie points for advancement.

I have been arrested before and let me tell ya something. Once cops make the commitment, they won't back off no matter how ignorant they are about to look. Those cops would have looked like the keystone gang that they are if after calling in half the darned force they said "oops my bad" and let handdog walk. Give him a break. Those cops should have never made the arrest.

handog wrote:

03Lightningrocks wrote:So a shirt lifting up or the wind blowing a shirt up and exposing a weapon is not a crime. Correct???

I cannot imagine a jury convicting someone if the shirt lifted or blew up. How that could be perceived as reckless, knowing or intentional. Common sense would say it was accidental. Oh, and I can just see them pulling the evidence out of the bag: an inside the waste band holster.

As I said before, it would probably depend on the judge and the prosecuting attorney. If they are anti-gun, seeking re-election, and/or trying to make a point with your case, they might be able to argue that you should've known not to wear a light garment on such a windy day, etc. It's all subjective, so it really depends on how much of an issue they want to make out of your case, and how good your attorney is. You might get lucky, or you might not.

My whole point is that prevention is the best remedy, and I personally prefer to just make sure that I'm concealed so NOBODY notices.

MojoTexas

Yes, the Texas law says that intentional or reckless "printing" is a crime, but it's still subjective. If you get arrested (as handog did), you will need to convince a judge or magistrate, or possibly even a jury (if it goes that far) that you had made a good faith effort to conceal your handgun, so that the average person would have no idea that you're carrying.

Fortunately for handog, he was able to do just that. He still had to spend some time sitting in a jail cell, and had to go several days without his CHL and weapon.

Still, for me, I choose to just learn from his lesson and take measures to ensure that if I'm carrying, that there's no way anyone will know short of a metal detector.

Just my two cents...
MojoTexas

AndyC wrote:

MojoTexas wrote:

bayouhazard wrote:Conceal well and follow Farnam's 3 rules of stupid. Avoids most problem.

What are the three rules? I tried Googling for them and couldn't find them.

“The best way to handle any potentially injurious encounter is: Don’t be there. Arrange to be somewhere else. Don’t go to stupid places. Don’t associate with stupid people. Don’t do stupid things.”
– John Farnam

Ah, my old Kenpo sensei used to quote those...they apply to unarmed self-defense as much as armed self-defense.

glbedd53 wrote:I have no doubt there are officers out there that are anti CHL and even anti 2nd amendment. My best friend was pulled over for speeding by a DPS on his way to work at 6:30 AM. He handed the DPS his DL and CHL just like we are tought to do. The DPS asked him, are you carrying now? No,I'm on my way to work but it is in the console. Would you mind if I search you? Well I guess not. My friend is a supervison at the plant. While he's being searched on the side of the highway people that work under him and over him, etc are driving by. Now, did the DPS have the right? Yes but why? He has a CHL so why would he lie? It was unnecessary. Unnecessary embarrassment. Police officers want to be treated with respect, so do citizens.

If I had been asked if I could be searched, my reply would be, "Why?" If the officer couldn't give me an answer to my satisfaction, I'd answer, "No." A police officer must have probable cause (you smell of alcohol or illegal substances, someone matching your description committed a crime recently, etc.) or a warrant in order to search you or your vehicle. They would have to spend a lot of time to eventually find absolutely nothing illegal in my vehicle. It's the principle of the matter....

Back when I was in college, me and a buddy went backpacking in Big Bend for spring break. Driving back to College Station, we went through Del Rio, and went across the border for a few hours. Driving north from Del Rio, we were stopped by a roadblock and a police officer asked us if we had anything illegal in the vehicle. Bear in mind we were both scruffy and hadn't showered in several days. I replied that we had nothing illegal in the car, and the police officer asked if he could search our vehicle. I replied, "Go ahead," and he just said, "Nevermind," and let us go on our way.

I didn't know then what I know now. I'm sure he was just looking for signs of guilt that would've indicated we had marijuana or other illegal substances in the vehicle. I'm sure he was also looking for illegal immigrants (even though this was 1990, before that became as big of an issue as it is now.) However nowadays I would still insist on my Fourth Amendment rights. Granted, given our appearance and the fact we were college kids heading north from a border town, he might have gotten away with probable cause, but I would still always refuse to permit a search now unless there was a dang good reason.

I respect peace officers, but I also believe that the Bill of Rights is amended to our constitution for a reason, and the Fourth Amendment is just as important as the rest of them.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

MojoTexas

wgoforth wrote:

MojoTexas wrote:I heard back from the CHLPP folks. They said that yes, they would provide legal assistance in a case like handogs, but their recommendation is not to carry in government buildings. (I know, I know...it's supposed to be legal...I'm just saying what he said.)

Looked at their sight and looks interesting... they say they partner with TSRA. I know there have been questions about how legitimate several of these CHL prepaid insurance groups are. Does anyone have any personal experience (good or bad) or know of anyone who did? I could be interested.

Well I just got my paperwork in the mail yesterday, so I have no experience with filing a claim with them. They do give you a card with your member number on it, and a toll-free number to call if you ever find yourself in hot water. I made two copies of the card, and I plan to give one to my wife and one to my parents, since if you're using a phone from jail you never have your wallet or your cell phone with you.

If nothing else it gives me a little peace of mind. It's cheaper than liability car insurance, and if you do find yourself in legal hot water due to your CHL, the cost could be potentially MUCH higher than a simple fender bender.

I heard back from the CHLPP folks. They said that yes, they would provide legal assistance in a case like handogs, but their recommendation is not to carry in government buildings. (I know, I know...it's supposed to be legal...I'm just saying what he said.)

joe817 wrote:gigag04, thank you for your comments. I appreciate them. And I want to thank you for your service to your community.

I second that...I always enjoy reading your posts, gigag04, because I find the LEO perspective interesting. Y'all take a lot of flak for what is often a thankless, dangerous, and woefully underpaid job.

(Gig'Em! BTHO USU!)
(Another Aggie...)
MojoTexas

bayouhazard wrote:Conceal well and follow Farnam's 3 rules of stupid. Avoids most problem.

What are the three rules? I tried Googling for them and couldn't find them.

I can't really comment on handog's case, because I wasn't there, and all I know is what I've read on this forum. It's not that I don't believe him, but obviously someone was able to determine he was armed, and they reacted. We haven't read the police report, nor have we heard the story from the arresting officer.

I don't know about y'all, but my CHL instructor (Dave Hammers at the Bullet Trap) really drilled it into our heads that concealed means CONCEALED. Yes, the law specifies that intentional printing is a crime, and accidental printing isn't, but the bottom line is that if nobody knows you're packing, you're better off. Dave used the example of you reaching for something on a high shelf at Wal-Mart, and some liberal anti-gun person spots that you're armed, and the next thing you know they're calling 911 reporting that you brandished your firearm at them. Even though you didn't, when the police arrive, they're going to determine that you ARE armed, and wonder how the person knew that you were armed unless you DID brandish your weapon. No it's not fair, but your best defense from these situations is to be discreet and make sure that you're concealed.

Also, that's part of the real reason for the Wally Walk tradition: to go out in public for the first time with someone (typically a spouse or significant other) and have them help you check out your rig, to make sure you're not flashing your piece when you reach for something high or sit down or bend over. Getting comfortable while carrying is only secondary in my opinion.

I recently signed up for the CHLPP insurance plan (http://www.chlpp.com/), and I plan to email and ask them if they cover incidents like handog's, or if they only cover cases where you had to use lethal force. Hopefully they'll cover any sort of CHL incident, but once I get clarification I will let y'all know.

Also, I think they way you conduct yourself if you ARE arrested can go a long way towards helping or hurting your case. Perhaps some of our LE members (gigag04?) can comment...but if you are polite and cooperate and act confident that you are not a criminal, then that helps you. Don't argue with the police...even if they are in the wrong, arguing or getting angry just makes things worse. If you are in the right, it'll get straightened out eventually. Just ask if you're being arrested...if they say you are, politely inform them that you'd like an attorney present before making a statement. You might have to spend the night in jail, but if your attorney is present when they question you they might just dismiss the charges and let you go on the spot.

All that being said, I'm not a lawyer...that's just my take on the issue.

MojoTexas