TexasCHLforum.com

Bullwhip wrote:

74novaman wrote:

billv wrote:How many bank robberies in the other OC states have you heard about where the OC'ers have been taken out?

Not a bank robbery, but how about a guy that got his gun stolen as he was OCing?

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html

I think I read that turned out to be bogus.

According to OCDO, another big google hit for "man open carrying robbed" was bogus. Here is one of the threads on that instance:
http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showt ... of-his-gun

I haven't been able to find anything about the occurrence I cited as being bogus.

billv wrote:How many bank robberies in the other OC states have you heard about where the OC'ers have been taken out?

Not a bank robbery, but how about a guy that got his gun stolen as he was OCing?

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html

And as a caveat, I will grant you that this is a rare occasion, most people OCing don't get robbed, the guy should have had much better situational awareness (whether carrying concealed or openly), etc etc....

But you can't say that no one has ever been targeted for a crime because they were OCing. At least one guy would disagree with ya.

In the end, I think some of this hypothetical back in forth is indeed as bad as the "blood in the streets" predictions.

However, please don't tell me that the Texas experience with gun busters signs after '95 and CHL have no relevance. That is not a hypothetical situation, that is a historical fact. Don't tell me how great your OC experiences were in Virginia or the great gun state of Illinois, because this is Texas. If people were willing to use gunbusters to ban CC in '95, I have no idea how or why you can assume they won't be willing to post 30.06 signs to ban OC. The ONLY reason more places do not have 30.06 posted is they have no idea people are carrying in their stores. (Hint: because its concealed).

I fully support Open Carry....if a simple gun busters sign is legal notice not to, and 30.06 and CHL laws are left out of the equation. Period.

steveincowtown wrote:There seems to be some flawed logic in this thread. Almost everyone agrees that OC is rarely practiced and rarely seen in states where it is legal, but then some contend that signs will go up everywhere because shopowners will panic at the first OC'er they see...which will be seldom or never? Doesn't add up in my book.

You could argue the same about why some are pushing so hard for it right now. We've already got campus carry and parking lot bills in this session, and the legislature is dealing with mobs of angry teachers and a budget crisis...this is now what, round 2 of trying to get campus carry passed? But by all means, lets use our political capital on something that "most people won't do". That makes perfect sense as well.

And you missed a point I made earlier. Even if not many people open carry, I can easily see local news doing segments on "Texas legislator wants people to be able to walk around in public with guns on their hips...find out how to keep Open Carry out of your business after the break"

If we don't have separate sign requirements for CC and OC, the mere fact that OC has passed will prompt people to post signs to prevent it, even if they never see someone doing it. Why did people put up gunbusters signs after 95? They certainly never saw anyone in their place of business with a gun, after all.

I'm all for pushing for open carry. With separate sign requirements, and after campus carry and parking lot bills are passed. If no ones going to do it anyway, why is it so important RIGHT NOW? As has been stated many many times, it took a long time for gun rights to get into as sad a state as they are in this country and this state. We're not going to get everything back at once. But if we work together on things piece by piece, we might have a little more success.

For the record, I'm not going to be calling reps and senators telling them to vote against the OC bill this session. I'm too busy calling people trying to get campus carry passed. I'm not against what ocdo wants to do, just their horrible timing and previous bad tactics (to be fair, haven't seen any bomb throwing this year about us sabotaging OC or being little bradyites.)

redlin67 wrote:It seems that a lot have the fear of "signs" that may appear because of open carry. When will you not be afraid? 2 years, 4 years, ever?

If gunbusters applied to OC and 30.06 to concealed carry only, then I would stop worrying about signs at all.

denwego wrote:That reminds me of when I lived in Virginia. I would openly carry to most places, and if I forgot where I had gone while running errands, I could look for the gunbuster signs that sprang up like magic minutes after I had been thrown out in handcuffs. Oh, wait, that never happened.

Houston is the biggest city in Texas and the city with the greatest potential for a §30.06 posting out of sheer volume of locations, and in 1.5 years I have never seen a valid sign. Everyone in the state with a brain already knows people can carry handguns in Texas, and if they wanted to keep CHLers out, nothing has ever stopped them from posting a sign. Saying that they're going to crop up everywhere overnight is like when people said there would be "blood in the streets" in 1995.

Also, when I was in Virginia, aside from gun-rights gatherings or shooting ranges, I never saw another person OCing. It wasn't common. But it was legal. Making it legal in Texas is still a net gain towards more freedom.

Charles Cotton has addressed this very issue. When CHL was passed in 95, gun buster signs popped up everywhere, prompting the creation of the big ugly sign in 1997. That is not talking about Virginia, but what happened in Texas with the CHL law.

Turning on my sarcasm mode now: But yes, we should absolutely base what we do here in Texas off of your experiences in Virginia, and not what actually occurred IN TEXAS.

edited to add: The only reason you don't see valid signs popping up is sheeple think a gunbusters is good enough, and since they never see a CONCEALED weapon, are never any the wiser. But I'm sure that'll work out with OC too.

Speaking of 30.06, this is my concern for OC without the right backing and information campaign (that means more than just yelling at people for being anti constitution and calling legislators)

Some local "newsbabe" as Rush would put it is going to actually do the tiny bit of research needed to run a story on OC that tells everyone the only way they can keep "people from walking around with a (add intimidating and concerned emphasis here) handgun out in the open" is to post this nifty little sign (camera pan to a compliant 30.06). In effect, we may end up educating a lot of people about how to ban carry who were previously unaware that they could or had to post more than a "gunbusters" sign if they don't like open carry.

Anyone feel free to poke holes in my theory, but given the amount of media attention given to campus carry, I think it's safe to say any law changed regarding guns in Texas is a free chance at a shock and awe news story.

Heck, if a viable attempt at OC is made, one might consider going into business manufacturing 30.06 signs...I bet you could make a pretty penny.

denwego wrote:With all the talk about §30.06 being changed, let's look at the positive side - every single current 30.06 sign, every last one of them, would be instantly invalid overnight over the entire state, thanks to those few minor wording changes. How many places are going to immediately go to the new code and update their signs to keep them compliant? If you don't want to carry openly past those "old" signs, stay concealed and relish the fact that you reap a nifty little side benefit!

Probably every single one that had someone open carry into their place of business. If they went through the trouble to ban CC, they're sure not going to be fans of open carry.

This is not an actual benefit.

Charles L. Cotton wrote:
Very well said Steve. I think far too few people understand that while the majority of people are not anti-gun, they are neutral on the issue. They are the battleground politically speaking. We won't convert the Sarah Brady ilk, she won't convert NRA folks, so we both battle for those in the middle -- the neutrals as Steve said.

Chas.

. And to tie into an earlier post by Charles, I'm sure that the scorched earth tactics of calling anyone who doesn't understand or like open carry (like those people in the middle we want to win over) as anti gun, anti constitutional idiots is really going to win them to our side.

Add a little +1 as to Charles comment about membership here not liking OCDO tactics....he would be referring to me, at least. I've surfed the ocdo site, and their own posts have done very little to dissuade me that any of them are willing to work on small steps to get to where we should be.

That's a shame, because I think our eventual goals (constitutional carry) are one and the same.

Some of us just think you can't eat an elephant in one big meal. Those you think you could, go try the 72 ounce steak challenge at the big Texan and report back to me.