TexasCHLforum.com

I appreciate what you're trying to do. Which text did I not read carefully, in your opinion? It seems to me the argument you're putting forth is that a prosecutor or plaintiff attorney would use a lightened trigger to claim I accidentally shot someone. If I testify in open court (OK, sure that's a risk because my lawyer may not want me on the stand at all) that I INTENDED to shoot the person, doesn't that negate any and all possibility that the shooting was an accident? Again, I understand that there are all sorts of varied possibilities that may or may not add up to a clean shoot where you'd want to say "Yes, I intended to shoot him." But, IMHO, that becomes a whole other matter entirely - if we're discussing a situation where you may or may not be involved in a "clean shoot", then you have much bigger problems than the pull weight of your trigger. And if an attorney is trying to make up an "accidental shooting" claim out of thin air, seems he needs more to go on than "he had a hair trigger on the gun." Now the argument that a hair trigger = a gun nut. OK, maybe that's an "easier" claim to throw up and see if it sticks (after all, we're all gun nuts in the minds of many libtards because - well - we own guns, silly - so of course we're gun nuts). But I doubt a Texas jury buys such rubbish unless there are other aspects of you or the case that also point toward some gun nut/vigilante characterture.

Of note is that Ayoob lives/works primarily in the northeastern United States, if I'm not mistaken, and a judge/jury and opposing counsel have a whole different set of morals regarding self defense up there. I don't foresee a true jury of my Texas peers buying the light trigger argument so easily.

Not intending to put you on the spot, but do you have some citations from Ayoob or elsewhere of actual cases where the "good guy" shooter's verdict depended upon the pull weight of his trigger, with or without other extenuating circumstances?

MostlyHarmless wrote:This topic has been beaten to death on the GlockTalk.com forums -- lots of good reading there to help each of us make our personal decision. Here's a quote from Massad Ayoob, one of the most noted authorities on such subjects from GlockTalk (http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthr ... 474&page=4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)...


"The whole debate thing works better if everyone listens to the opposite side's arguments, and actually reads them.

Some here are looking at it from the perspective of shooters talking about Glocks on the Internet. Fair enough...we all ARE exactly that.

However, to grasp the point under discussion, we have to look at it from the perspective of an unscrupulous lawyer trying to manufacture a false case against a law-abiding citizen who intentionally fired in self-defense. Manufacturing a theory of the case that the shooter ACCIDENTALLY fired -- since there is no such thing as a "justifiable accident" -- is the topic of the discussion, and that falsification can be accomplished much more easily if the defendant used a lighter trigger pull than recommended by the manufacturer.

"I most certainly DID intend to shoot [the bad guy]. He threatened to kill me and my children and had an axe in his hands. When he raised the axe and moved toward us, I raised my Glock and fired two controlled shoots into his chest - just like I've been training to do for years. Upon receiving the two gunshot wounds, center mass, the attacker fell backwards and the threat to our lives was over, so I moved my children to a safe area and called 911, asking for an ambulance and police response ASAP"

MostlyHarmless wrote:The argument has been presented here, that a light pull may make the shooter less likely to jerk the shot, miss the intended target, and hit a baby in a stroller. Opposing counsel can be expected to argue, "If the defendant knew his competence was so low that without a 'hair trigger' he would miss the criminal and kill a baby, why didn't he realize he was not competent to carry a loaded gun in public at all?"

Light pull advocates, what will your answer be to counter that?

"As for my competency ... I didn't miss, did I? I hit what I aim at. Just like I normally do at the range, at IDPA competition etc. I adjusted the trigger on my Glock so that it felt good to me, was smooth and easy to properly manipulate - thus making it easier for me to hit my intended target, which I did in this case. This was no accident, I purposely fired both rounds at the bad guy to stop his unlawful attempted use of deadly force against me and my children.

MostlyHarmless wrote:Some, thinking like shooters instead of defendants, say that all you need to do is keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you intend to fire. Opposing counsel can be expected to argue, "We KNOW that's what you were supposed to do, and we're saying you didn't do it. We're saying you made a mistake. Are you telling this jury that you are the first perfect human being incapable of making a mistake?"

Light pull advocates, what will your answer be to counter that?"

First of all, it's a gross over-statement to label anyone who carries a gun with a less-than-stock trigger as a "light pull advocate" . There are varying degrees to this (as with most things). Simple answer to all of the above is, assuming I have a good lawyer, I'll answer in the way my lawyer counsels me to. But for the sake of this internet discussion, I gave the above answers. The answer to the last part - again - is "I did not make a mistake, I intentionally fired two rounds into the bad guy's chest to stop his unlawful use of deadly force against me and my children. If you have proof that I didn't intend to shoot him, please present it. Otherwise, shut your pie hole you overpaid weasel! "

(OK, I probably wouldn't say the last part )

TAM, I definitely understand your point of view (and no this is not meant to be another tongue in cheek Glock vs. 1911 tit-for-tat - being serious here). I felt that way for a long time and carried my Glock box stock for a decade.

But through my own experience and discussing triggers and safety etc with many many folks (including many wonderfully knowledgeable folks on this forum) I've come to the conclusion that keeping that booger hook off the bang switch is the A-number-1 most important safety feature of any gun. Everything else is just some degree of window dressing.

Certainly having an extra external manual safety (like a 1911 thumb safety) does help, but something you said above always gives me pause: This idea that a 1911 owner could accidentally hit the trigger and not have an ND because the manual thumb safety prevents it. I can't remember who first said this, but seems it is written in every gun manual I've ever read "Never rely on a mechanical safety"; put another way: follow the four rules - ALWAYS. I think I remember one of your posts a while back in which you'd carried one of your 1911s all day and realized upon taking it out of holster at end of day that at some point the mechanical safety had been switched off, unbeknownst to you. What if you'd accidentally hit the trigger that day?

My point is, while external safeties and stiffer triggers can provide an extra level of safety, none of them will fully overcome the OOPS mistake of having your finger inside the trigger guard when it's not supposed to be. In some ways this all comes down to training, muscle memory, and even the user's own capacity for constant vigilance and adherence to the four rules.

In terms of a Glock trigger, I don't honestly think the difference between the stock trigger (about 5.5 lbs I believe) and the addition of the 3.5 connector (which actually only reduces trigger pull to 4.5 lbs) is going to make a huge difference in avoiding an ND. If your finger (or some other object like a retention strap) is inside the trigger guard when some amount of force is exerted on the gun, it's gonna go bang whether the trigger pull weight is 5.5 or 4.5 lbs. But a Glock can be set up to have a trigger as light as the lightest competition 1911 (without a thumb safety) or as heavy as a stock double-action revolver, and just about everything in between. The variance between a 2-lb hair trigger and a 10-lb NY-2 trigger IS more significant. On Glock race guns with true hair triggers down in the 2-lb range, I definitely see your argument and would never run such a trigger on a defensive gun. And I do believe that an 8-lb or 10-lb trigger like you get from the NY-1 and NY-2 trigger springs could help a bit avoiding ND problems, but those problems only occur in the first place if you've already broken the rules and placed a finger inside the trigger guard. And the heavier trigger greatly reduces my accuracy.

I don't run 8-lb or heavier triggers on my semi-auto guns because I have NEVER been able to adequately overcome the rapid degredation of my accuracy when pulling a heavy trigger (this is why personally I dislike DA/SA semi-autos like Sigs and older metal-frame S&Ws, though otherwise they are fantastic firearms). At the same time, I don't prefer to rely on a thumb safety like a 1911 (even though I love that gun design) because the only two NDs I've had in my entire life are from 1911-pattern guns. But also because every gun (striker-fired semi-autos and double-action revolvers) I own lacks a manual safety, and using such a gun for carry would require learning a new battery of arms, new muscle memory, etc. For this same reason - in opposite direction - I think it's great that S&W offers thumb safeties on the M&P series so that folks who're used to the 1911 battery of arms can feel comfortable sliding right into that weapon system.

As with most things outside the Four Rules (which should be chiseled in stone), I think a lot of this comes down to personal preference and the end user knowing his/her own tendencies and comfort level. If a thumb safety makes you feel safer, by all means buy guns with thumb safeties and use them. Me personally, I feel very safe with my slightly altered Glocks, which are always carried in holsters that fully cover the trigger guard and don't have extraneous retention devices that could lodge into the trigger guard. I prefer the simplicity of draw, acquire, fire (without that extra step of "drop safety") - just works best for me - and my triggers, while about a pound lighter than stock, just feel better to me - my reason for using them has more to do with overall feel of the full trigger press/reset than merely pull weight.

As for legal consequences, I fully understand why many law enforcement agencies go with stock or heavier Glock triggers to try to reduce overall liability. Afterall they have dozens, hundreds, even thousands of officers of varying skill levels to worry about. I only have to worry about me. And for me personally, I don't really worry about legal consequences of a slightly modified trigger. I'm not a cop. I don't go chasing after bad guys, gun in hand etc. If I'm going to be hung out to dry for altering one part in a gun to make the trigger feel a bit better, which helps me shoot SAFER and MORE ACCURATELY then so be it. My goal is to never discharge my weapon at another human being. Ever. But if I ever have to discharge my weapon toward another human being, it will be to save a life - mine or someone elses. As long as I shoot accurately and only hit the bad guy, I'll fend off any other spurious claims as best I can. If I must shoot, I'd rather hit my target with a gun I'm comfortable shooting than miss with a trigger that is too heavy for my personal preference.

Anyway, I've spent WAY over my $0.02 allottment on this long-winded diatribe. TAM, as always no ill will intended at all - much respect for you

RPB wrote:

Abraham wrote:While I know many who change out triggers on Glocks, I read little of such with XD's, Sigs, etc.

Why is that?

Anyone know - Parts availability or ...?

Service Depts and gunsmiths need jobs too

Basic Glock trigger work is as simple as swapping out one $15 OEM or aftermarket part (connector) or perhaps spring (the "NY1" and "NY2" others have mentioned. Most any owner can do this - breaking down a Glock to it's smallest parts is very simple compared to most pistols; only one tool - 3/16" punch - is really needed. There are some more complicated tuning tricks, but most feel these are unnecessary for anything but a strictly competition gun. In addition to simplicity, Glock parts are cheap and readily available.

By contrast Springfield XDs, Smith & Wesson M&P, Sig etc usually require some gunsmith work to tune triggers. Buddy of mine and forum member spent over $100 sending an XD to Springer Precision for trigger work. M&P can be tuned with Apex parts, which are more expensive ($35 - $100+ depending on what you want) and borderline owner installable - I installed them in mine, but doing so pushed me close to the limits of my comfort level.

I run the OEM Glock 3.5-lb connector in all my Glocks for consistency's sake.