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corbmonster wrote:Thanks again everyone for educating me. It still seems crazy that an open area could have a 51% sign. It almost sounds like a good legal argument of being able to walk around the area while carrying, and not being by the vendors that sell booze. Not that I'm advocating trying it out. I'm not. Who want to deal with that hassle?

I think it's another good legal argument to remove 51% locations from list of off-limits locations for those who are not drinking/intoxicated.

Keith B wrote:A-R, this is a grey area in the law. TABC does define premises as the area defined by the license holder to dispense alcohol when they apply for the license, and that can be the entire grounds and parking lot. And, if enforcement is done on a 51% violation, it will probably be done by a TABC officer and not another LEO.

SO, while you may end up technically beating the rap on the definition of premise under 46.035, you may not beat the ride. IMO it's best to abide by the broader definition to make sure all laws are adhered to.

Completely agree on "beat the rap ... "

But I'm wondering if making this precise distinction was in fact the clear intent of the authors of this statute. Otherwise, why include the unique definition of "premises" in PC 46.035 (caveat of course that intent could have been to define "premises" as related to the other myriad off-limits locations listed in this statute).

Perhaps Chas can shed some light?

Keith, not sure if your reference to TABC definition of premises was to my post (which I've deleted while further researching). But I'm now not so sure it is technically illegal to carry in an open air property with a 51% sign.

as usual, I AM NOT A LAWYER ... but walk through this with me.

51% businesses are required to post the sign as described in relevant sections of code here:

Government Code 411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES. (a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).

(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

The TABC defines a premises for the purpose of granting an "on-premises consumption" alcohol sales permit/license thusly:

Alcohol Beverage Code 11.49. PREMISES DEFINED; DESIGNATION OF LICENSED PREMISES. (a) In this code, "premises" means the grounds and all buildings, vehicles, and appurtenances pertaining to the grounds, including any adjacent premises if they are directly or indirectly under the control of the same person.

(b)(1) Subject to the approval of the commission or the administrator, and except as provided in Subsection (c) of this section, an applicant for a permit or license may designate a portion of the grounds, buildings, vehicles, and appurtenances to be excluded from the licensed premises.

BUT ... the "premises" definition in the Penal Code is the enforceable element of the crime of unlawful carry in a 51% location ...

Penal Code 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;

(f) In this section:

(3) "Premises" means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

So, if I'm reading/analyzing/understanding all this correctly, regardless whether the TABC defines the licensed premises as "the grounds and all buildings, etc..." thus requiring the alcohol permittee/licensee to post the 51% sign for the entire TABC-defined premises, for purposes of enforcing the no-carry zone, the PC 46.035 definition of "premises" ("a building or a portion of a building") is the only relevant definition to establish the element of the crime of unlawful carry in a 51% location.

Thus, while the business is required to post the entire TABC-defined "premises", the CHL holder is only prohibited by PC 46.035 to carry inside any buildings or portions of building within the overall TABC-defined "premises".

I've not been to Sherwood Forest in McDade but driven by it multiple times on Austin-to-Houston trips along US 290 and it appears to be a large outdoor property/venue. If I'm reading all of this correctly, it would be technically legal to carry on the grounds of this venue, but not into any buildings (including restrooms )

Anyway, just my quick-n-dirty non-attorney analysis. Showing me I'm wrong is of course encouraged.