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fm2 wrote:llwatson, KD5NRH - I knew the bleed-out time was shorter than a min. Thanks for the data. We could compile all the data for loss of conciousness. After unconciousness happens, and probably some time before, you can't defend yourself.

You can't perform first aid on yourself after that, either, which is the best reason to get some training for your family and friends. With immediate aid, even with improvised supplies, the survival times increase by orders of magnitude. One of my scoutmasters was training for EMS, and he drilled into us just how important it is to unplug the airway and plug the leaks ASAP. Oneof these days, I need to get current on that stuff again.

In the Ranger Medic Handbook they list preventable causes of death in combat.
They shake out like this:
60% Bleeding to death from extremity wounds.
33% Tension pneumothorax
6% Airway obstruction (maxillofacial trauma)

I prefer the simplified breakdown:
33% Stuff you can fix
33% Stuff you might be able to fix
33% Stuff you should try to fix anyway
01% Not enough left to work on

The EMT have a special name for the first 5 minutes. Anyone know what it's called

Well, the last EMT I talked to at any length usually referred to it as "almost too late."

KD5NRH - I like your idea. I realize folks focus on the time issue, but its really an initiative problem. If you get behind the curve in say the first 10 seconds, can you recover and regain the initiative. The response time really becomes a non-issue once viewed in the proper context.

Ten seconds; probably not - most violent conflicts are pretty well decided in ten seconds or less. Look at it this way; with very little practice, my wife was shooting the 5-5-5-5 drill consistently with my 1911. (5 shots from five yards in a 5 inch circle in 5 seconds) That means that 10 seconds is plenty for a relatively inexperienced shooter to empty a .45ACP with good combat accuracy, including headshots. Two or three seconds might be enough if your opponent is just plain slow (don't annoy Jerry Miculek, he'll be on his second reload by then) or makes some mistakes, but he's really going to have to screw up to give you a ten-second comeback.

I think the biggest problem is that a lot of people have an underdeveloped concept of time; three seconds sounds like it's not time to do anything, and three minutes isn't very long to wait. The CHL qualifier puts it in a bit of perspective; I had time to tap-rack on one of the fast strings, and still got all my shots off with time to spare, but most people don't ever stop and see what they can do in x seconds or y minutes.

llwatson wrote:A person must lose about 20% of their blood volume to lose conciousness from blood loss alone.

For an average size man (about 180 lbs) with an arterial wound, this takes about 12 seconds.

This appears to assume a truly open artery; i.e. fully severed and exposed with no resistance to the flow of blood out of the body. IIRC, Applegate's numbers accounted for the most likely wound types in a knife fight; slashes deep enough to hit lesser protected arteries like the brachial/radial/ulnar, and stabs into more buried ones like the subclavian. Slashes have a nasty tendency to leave a wide-open exit path, while stabs leave a relatively small hole for the blood to get out, increasing the time-to-incapacitation even if the artery is actually severed.

Either way, it doesn't sound like fun, so I'm not volunteering to demo any of it.

OTOH, I recall someone telling about demonstrating what can happen in three minutes to a class at the range. I was thinking earlier tonight that a "what could you do in three minutes" video series would be an interesting idea: several three minute videos showing how many "A" (or -0 for the IDPA folks) hits you can get at 10 yards, or how much knife work, or even how many miles at the local racetrack various people can manage. Some folks don't think it's a long time to wait until they see it in terms of how many times you can be shot, or how many miles away from the scene the perp can take your family member while the police are getting there.

Any volunteers? I'd love to throw a couple dozen of those videos on a DVD, and it seems like it could be good publicity for CHL, especially with a few minutes of EMS folks explaining how critical each minute can be and/or combat veterans describing what three minutes in a real firefight is like.

fm2 wrote:How long does it take someone to bleed out from an arterial knife wound? 1 or 2 mins. ?

ISTR Applegate did some studies on this for various cut locations. I don't have the book handy, but IIRC, three minutes was well beyond loss-of-consciousness time for virtually all of the cuts, and beyond the death time for several.

If you're unconscious, it'll almost certainly take responding officers a couple more minutes to prepare for and make entry, possibly another minute or more to find you, and then you'll be receiving minimal first aid at best until the ambulance crew arrives.

LedJedi wrote: mkay77304: I was just thinking of keeping it at the house though

mkay77304: yeahy, but I really don't ever go out anywhere even remotely dangerous to be honest

Ask him why he doesn't move to one of those less dangerous places, if his home is dangerous enough for him to want a gun, but nowhere else is.