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The Annoyed Man wrote: ↑Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:11 pm

puma guy wrote: ↑Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:46 am

Abraham wrote: ↑Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:41 am cmgee67,

Wow!

I thought I was grumpy...just please remember: No one is forced to read what others post.

To all: Thanks, I cheerfully thank you all for your responses.

Abraham,
Some may not have had their coffee. I do find it interesting and telling that so many new pistols in .380 have come out in recent years. Markets react to demands.

There is a strong demand for rap “music” in the entertainment industry too. Doesn’t mean it’s any damn good.

Although I have settled on carrying 9mm, I actually agree that .45 is probably more effective.....if you hit your target. I’m reasonably confident that I can hit a target most of the time with either caliber. And like many, I find the .45 reasonably easy to shoot......certainly no more difficult than shooting 9mm. The only reason I carry 9mm is because that’s what my wife carries. The main reason I carry Glocks is because that’s what my wife carries. I can adapt myself to just about anything. She either can’t or won’t be that adaptable; but it doesn’t matter which. I’ve never been able to make her do anything she didn’t want to do since the day I met her. It is important to me that she be able to handle my carry weapon if something should happen to me, even though she always carries one herself.

I have my personal range of calibers which I view to be “sufficient”. What does “sufficient” mean to me? It means that I have complete confidence that it will be enough caliber, if I do my part. Calibers less powerful than 9mm may be “sufficient” in other people’s hands, and those people may have complete confidence in them....and that is fine for them. But in a pinch, I’d rather have even a .25 than no gun at all - Jeff Cooper’s wisdom notwithstanding. I’d take a .22LR over a .25. I’d take a .32 over a .25. I’d take a .380 over either a .25 or a .32. I’d take a .38 +P over a .380, a .25, or a .32. Notice that I did not eliminate the .22LR? What that means is that I regard the .22LR as a legitimate self-defense caliber, even if it isn’t an immediate fight-stopper. I can carry 38 +P in my .357 magnum revolver, but I don’t, I carry .357. Why? Because in the unlikely event that I actually have to shoot it, I’m not going to give much of a hoot about recoil, but I WILL give a hoot about effectiveness - and a .357 magnum has a higher probability of being effective than a .38 +P.

And that is what this all boils down to for me. I don’t mock the less powerful calibers, but they’re not my primary choice for carry. If it were less socially awkward to openly carry a loaded long gun everywhere I went, I’d probably give less thought to what pistol caliber I carry.

I most often carry a Kahr PM40 or a Model 60 .38, but as mentioned sometimes a S&W .380 Bodyguard. To be clear I only mentioned the upswing in .380 model because enough people are making it a choice to make it profitable to develop and market new models; the Browning 1911-.380 as an example.

Abraham wrote: ↑Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:41 am cmgee67,

Wow!

I thought I was grumpy...just please remember: No one is forced to read what others post.



To all: Thanks, I cheerfully thank you all for your responses.

Abraham,
Some may not have had their coffee. I do find it interesting and telling that so many new pistols in .380 have come out in recent years. Markets react to demands.

mrvmax wrote: ↑Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:41 am This has been and will continue to be addressed ad nauseum, it’s just the nature of the topic. Some info on documented SD round use is great, some is too biased to rely upon. Think about it logically, you need to stop a deadly threat that is trying to take your life or someone around you. The piece of metal you fire needs to disrupt a vital component of the attackers body to stop it from functioning enough to stop the attack and anything that accomplishes that will work. The question is what will give you a greater chance of hitting a vital area to stop the attack? Certainly a larger projectile increases the odds. Higher velocity and accuracy will also increase the odds. Decide how you will stack those odds in your favor and pray that you never live to see the day when you need to prove it out.

Think I'll go get some popcorn, now!

The Annoyed Man wrote: ↑Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:56 pm Puma guy, your stories about selling .25 auto pistols reminds me of that famous quote by the late Col. Jeff Cooper, who said:

[C]arry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it you may shoot it. If you shoot it you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you.

Cooper also said that a .25 wasn’t sufficient to clear one’s sinuses, let along anything else.

If I had to choose between a .25 and a .22 LR, I’d take the .22 for sure.

Perhaps another consideration might be the Keltec PMR-30 in .22 Magnum. Go to http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=467321, and scroll down until you see the post from “opiodergics-ga” beginning with

“My name is Jesse (online name Danny Bishop). I myself was shot--in the chest--on November 27th, 1994, at point-blank range with a .22" magnum revolver”

The poster describes in some detail the injuries he suffered, what it felt like to be shot by that round, and permanent impact it had on his life..... which is not good.

And that was a “mere” .22 magnum.

No pun intended, but it really is a hit or miss thing. Like I said above, I’ve seen people killed by .22s, and I’ve held a conversation with someone who had been shot through the right ventricle with a 9mm and was still alert, oriented, and talking.

Jeff was a smart man and possessed sage wisdom. I have a friend, a police officer, who was shot in the head by a junk yard guard while off duty. The junk yard was in an area on the outskirts of Houston where police would gather and shoot at night. My friend Dick took a friend there to pop a few caps one night and when leaving drove past the junk yard and the guard threw a round at the car hitting Dick in the temple. He said he thought they were up to no good because the car was going fast. Dick's corvette ended up in a ditch and he thought the wound on his temple was from the accident. The .38 bullet traversed his brain following the inside of his skull to the opposite side without exiting. He was talking and acting completely normal before they discovered what it was and rushed him into surgery or alert and oriented X three as you're very familiar with. Just wasn't his time.

That the .22 Rimfire has no "knockdown" power can hardly be debated. That the .22 LR can and is often lethal is undeniable. The arguments regarding effectiveness of the .380 vs 9mm and everything else are plentiful on the internet. I have seen some test with .380 defensive rounds in ballistics gel that make a convincing case for use in SD/HD. I certainly wouldn't want to be shot with it. I have been shot in the abdomen with a .22 LRHP and can give you anecdotally the effectiveness of the bullet. Impact was like a very strong, but dull punch. Pain level was minimal. but I had a weird sensation in my belly and a slight feeling of nausea that did have some debilitating effect . I felt no burning sensation at the wound or internally. Though bleeding profusely I walked about two hundred yards to the car used to take me to a hospital, but I must tell you I hardly felt that I could have put up much of a fight. Medically the bullet caused extensive damage to both my small and large intestines. The bullet was headed for my liver, but bounced off my pelvic bone before striking there. A wound to the liver would have been fatal long before the intestinal damage would have killed me. That little 36gr piece of lead could have hit my spleen, but stopped before arriving there. Several hours of surgery to repair all the holes, penicillin shots every 4 hours for 9 days, plus some of the god awfullest concoction made to kill bacteria in the GI tract that they made drink the first three days kept me from getting peritonitis. Though I could drink and eat jello there was a tube pumping most everything out of my stomach for about half the time. Xrays every day to check the movement of the main part of the bullet to see if it would pass through the colon. (I still have a small piece floating around my belly that shows up on Xrays) I later sold guns and at the time all small center fire pistols .25 and .32ACP, .380's only had ball (FMJ) ammunition available. There was minimal information on what sort of effect those bullets had, but I remembered a story told to me by my hometown doctor who followed up my GSW to remove the stitches. He was in WWII and told me he treated a soldier who was shot with a .45ACP ball round in upper buttocks. The bullet passed through and exited his groin without striking any vitals or larger blood vessels. He stitched the two holes, put bandages on the wounds and told me after two days sent him to the brig. I also read a story about a doctor who was robbed at knife point of his medical bag containing drugs and he shot the perp twice with a .25ACO. The guy ran away. The doctor was quoted as saying he was going to get more powerful pistol ; a .32. LOL

I had many ladies come in wanting SD pistols and they invariably asked to see .25 Auto. I would show the pistol and ammo and answer their questions. Every once in a while one would ask to see the "larger" pistol , a .32. I would then show them a little .22 High Standard 9 shot Sentinel with a 2 inch barrel; explaining the .22 had more muzzle energy that the .25ACP and .22 was made with HP ammo available. I had a little dissertation ready to explain how to load the cylinder with a couple of .22 LR rat shot rounds followed by 7 .22 LR. How the cylinder should be oriented so that they first two shots could be fired at a bad guys face most likely making it impossible to see and if that didn't stop him they pretty much could have their way with him as he lashed about. They almost always bought the .25 auto.

Now days with improved ammo and bullets I wouldn't hesitate to recommend to those ladies a small semi auto, but the minimum would be a .380. That's what my wife carries. She has a 9mm Shield, but just doesn't have the hand strength to consistently rack it. We settle on a locked breech - the Glock 42. I wanted her to select the SIG .238. but she shot and manipulated the G42 more effectively and accurately. I also often carry a S&W Bodyguard. So if you've made it this far ( I do tend to be a bit wordy) you know why I have come to think of the .380 as an adequate SD/HD round.

I'll end with some humor. During my short time as an EMT, about two years, we used to joke that the deadliest pistol was a small, micro barreled .22 semi-auto fired on a dead run by a jealous wife at her cheating husband 50 yards ahead of her. One pill directly in the back of the head.