TexasCHLforum.com

Just bored ... so I sent this ... (Also CCd to Senator Tester of Montana I believe, who is working with Kay B Hutcheson on some pro-gun issues... as well as to wes.masur@tpwd.state.tx.us at TPWD.

U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
District Engineer
CC: Honorable Representative K. Michael Conaway
CC: Senator John Cornyn

Please advise how to go about contacting the District Engineer. And what forms need to be filled out, if any.
As of May 27, 2007 there were 8,911,818 cars in Texas.
According to the regulation below, we each need written permission from the District Engineer to park our cars (which legally contain concealed handguns under Texas Penal Code Sec. 46.02) in the parking areas of on U.S. Army Corps of engineers parks and recreation areas.
I imagine all the Concealed Handgun Licensees will also need written permission. (Active License Holders 314,574 as of 12/31/2008, but many thousands more since Obama got into office)

I'll be as helpful as possible and publish the District Engineer's address so they may each request permission.
I'll have my request filed as soon as I get your reply, and a list of what information or documents are required to obtain it.

Per a prior e-mail, you stated that the Tejas Park is within the USACOE boundaries, but leased to TPWD. Ok, just to be sure ... Tejas Park is in the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department area so is it Ok to park there with a concealed handgun in the car (Texas Motorist Protection act) and Also OK to carry a loaded concealed weapon with a current valid Texas Concealed Handgun License? I have no interest at all in hunting, just fishing and self-protection.
http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/george ... %20Map.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Thank you.

------------
From: "Weber, Carey D SWF" <Carey.D.Weber@usace.army.mil>
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 03:59 PM
Subject: RE: Lake Georgetown

Tejas Park is at Lake Georgetown, where all property is owned and managed by
the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. The wildlife management areas at Granger
Lake are licensed to Texas Parks and Wildlife Dept., but remain U.S. Army
Corps of Engineers property. Thanks, Carey.

-----------
To: Carey.D.Weber@usace.army.mil
Subject: USACOE Parks and Lakes

So are you saying we can NOT park our cars which contain a legally concealed handgun under Texas Law, in the parking area of a USACOE park in Texas even if it is leased to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, unless I have written permission from the District Engineer?
Are you saying that I can be in my kayak drift fishing in Brazos River Authority, San Gabriel River, that you have no sign stating that I am now entering a USCOE Lake where firearms are prohibited unless I have written permission, but I'm supposed KNOW where that imaginary line is?
And are you saying that we can NOT fish from the bank in Texas State Parks on USCOE Lakes where the TPWD leases the land for a State Park, unless I have written permission from the District Engineer? Or are you saying we CAN fish there from the bank/shore, but not wade fish in the water, unless I have written permission from the District Engineer?What if I'm fishing from the shore and need to get my lure un-hung and need to wade out, or if a swimming child calls for help? Will I need to run to the car to lock up my gun before jumping in to save him? or should I just leave it on shore covered/concealed by a towel and hope no other child uses the towel to dry off so I can save the other from drowning?

When entering one of the Parks or recreation areas, are there gates where we leave our guns from our cars and pick them up on the way out?

Also, since you don't have a sign or boundary marker in the river channel where we are in our boats/kayaks/canoes/float tubes or signs and receptacles beside the river on the bank/shore for us to know where your property begins, where should we deposit and pick up our guns while in the river you don't own and the wind drifts us into the river part you DO own at the upper end of your lakes and just below the dams (where the white bass are running now)?

Thank you.

---------

They previously responded with this

Your inquiry was forwarded to me for response. Attached are detailed maps showing the approximate location of the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers boundary at the western and eastern limits. Some of these areas are not fenced. All other areas of the boundary are fenced. These are shown on the lake map at the following link:

http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/george ... n/Maps.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. At Granger Lake the wildlife management areas are licensed to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department for hunting areas, but ownership is retained by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. You may contact the Granger Lake Manager at James.D.Chambers@usace.army.mil for more information. Thank you for your interest in Lake Georgetown. Carey.

<<LakeGeorgetownW.jpg>> <<LakeGeorgetownE.jpg>>


Carey D. Weber
Georgetown Lake Manager
500 Lake Overlook Dr.
Georgetown, Tx. 78633-8238
1-512-819-9046

You are absolutly right Steve.
I need a link to a website for mental UPDATES; to upgrade my processor.
I didn't look real hard, and I should have checked Transportation Code first, but I guess the TEXAS MOTOR VEHICLE BOARD was trying to change the definition Occupation Code before... and I jumped over there instead.
I need to keep up better with changes .... still mad that YIELD signs are no longer yellow and black (kidding)
I should try to research as well as when I used to get paid to do it, but alas, retirement made me lazy.
Thanks.
I concur, and defer, and YIELD to your posted definition ... lol
Boats aren't motor vehicles under either definition.

In anticipation of your next question, Why isn't a motorboat a motor vehicle ....

The only definition I CAN FIND of what a motor vehicle is in Texas comes from the Occupations Code ....(although we have a Texas Motor Vehicle Board regulating motor vehicles)

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... C.2301.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

23) "Motor vehicle" means:

(A) a fully self-propelled vehicle having two or more wheels that has as its primary purpose the transport of a person or persons, or property, on a public highway;

(B) a fully self-propelled vehicle having two or more wheels that:

(i) has as its primary purpose the transport of a person or persons or property;

(ii) is not manufactured for use on public streets, roads, or highways; and

(iii) has been issued a certificate of title;

(C) an engine, transmission, or rear axle, regardless of whether attached to a vehicle chassis, manufactured for installation in a vehicle that has:

(i) the transport of a person or persons, or property, on a public highway as its primary purpose; and

(ii) a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 16,000 pounds; or

(D) a towable recreational vehicle.



TEXAS MOTOR VEHICLE BOARD
Court case
http://www.supreme.courts.state.tx.us/e ... 045405.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

TEXAS MOTOR VEHICLE BOARD proposed legislation to re-define "motor vehicle"
http://texinfo.library.unt.edu/texasreg ... ATION.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Texas Motor Vehicle Board of the Texas Department of Transportation proposes new §103.17, concerning the definition of motor vehicle under the Texas Occupations Code. This proposed new rule seeks to clarify the definition of motor vehicle to include motorized scooters and other equivalent vehicles.


Proposed new §103.17 clarifies the definition of motor vehicle under Texas Occupations Code §2301.002(23)(A) to include motorized scooters and other like vehicles that meet certain specified criteria. First, to meet the definition of motor vehicle a motorized scooter must be able to commence and continue movement without manual assistance, as stated in proposed subsection §103.17(a)(1). Second, a motorized scooter possessing that capability must also meet one of the additional criteria listed in subsection (a)(2) to be deemed a motor vehicle under the proposed rule. Proposed §103.17(a)(2) requires a motorized scooter to be certified either as a moped by the Texas Department of Public Safety under subsection (a)(2)(A), or capable of being certified as a motor vehicle by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration under subsection (a)(2)(B). However, if a motorized scooter is not certified under either category, then it may still be deemed a motor vehicle if it meets 3 of 5 alternative criteria listed under proposed subsection (a)(2)(C). The proposed rule further clarifies in subsection (b) that a motorized scooter or equivalent vehicle does not include go-carts or motorized mobility devices.

Rodrockinoff wrote:Here's a fairly good and semi-reasonable question for you: Why doesn't the Castle Doctrine apply when we are in our water vessels? Works in cars... why not boats? We have the right to protect ourselves when traveling... even without a concealed license... I think this should apply to watercraft as well, not matter where we are "traveling."

What do you think?

Rodrockinoff

First, Castle Doctrine and Motorist Protection Act and Concealed Hangun License are State of Texas.
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is not State of Texas. (Like a IRAN Foreign Embassy in the USA is considered Iranian Soil)

Castle Doctrine is not a car doctrine, except possibly where a motorohome is a "premesis" = temporary residence.
Castle Doctrine concerns your home/premesis (a man's home is his castle)

The Motorist Protection Act allows the unlicensed carry in a motor vehicle or motor home used as a premesis.
The Penal Code which defines premesis, did not include houseboats, but included RVs, motorhomes, travel trailers and such pretty specifically defining the term "premesis"

Travelling? I see nothing about "travelling" that's OLD law, not current

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/S ... /PE.46.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Penal Code Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:

(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.

(a-2) For purposes of this section, "premises" includes real property and a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection, "recreational vehicle" means a motor vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains temporary living quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters.

(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.

Doesn't look like a houseboat or motorboat is a premesis ...
My next post explains that a motorboat or houseboat is not a "motor vehicle"

Let's examine that ...


327.26 State and local laws.
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this part or by Federal law or regulation


Here, it is "otherwise provided"

§ 327.13 Explosives, firearms, other
weapons and fireworks.
The possession of loaded firearms,
ammunition, loaded projectile firing
devices, bows and arrows, crossbows,
explosives or explosive devices of any
kind, including fireworks, is prohibited unless:
(a) In the possession of a Federal,
state or local law enforcement officer;
(b) Being used for hunting or fishing
as permitted under § 327.8, with devices
being unloaded when transported to,
from or between hunting and fishing
sites;
(c) Being used at authorized shooting
ranges; or
(d) Written permission has been received
from the District Engineer.

So, 1) they are prohibited by Federal law, and
A) If you aren't a LEO, the LEO "unless" provision does not apply
b) But, ... I know of no CHL who carries "with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting and fishing sites;" AND a concealed handgun isn't "being used" for fishing or hunting. So, b) "unless" provision does not apply.
c) might apply if you use your concealed handgun at the shooting range only ... unloading it before and afterwards.
d) get permission applies if you have it.

The general Federal Law prohibits weapons on Federal property, and § 327.13 allows carrying a firearm to Police Officers, people using the shooting ranges, etc etc. I presume only to those allowed to own or posses a weapon under State Law (ie. NOT felons, fugitives from justice etc ... 327.26 State and local laws..) So, a felon in possession of a firearm at the shooting range on US Army property (US Army Corps of Engineers) is not something they desire.

Rex B wrote:Sir,
Thanks for your question. Since you are on the waters operated and
managed by the COE you would be required to abide by their rules and
laws, therefore this would be a question for them. As I understand it,
you would not be allowed to carry a weapon on their waterway.
Please let me know if I can be of further assistance,
Wes Masur
Director, State Park Law Enforcement
512-389-8001 Office
512-389-8559 Fax
wes.masur@tpwd.state.tx.us

That pretty well confirms what I was saying in another thread. Where we can go to a State,City,County Park, River Authority property, etc.(Whitney, Ray Roberts, Georgetown, Granger, Stillhouse, etc etc etc) and fish from the bank at a legal location, but to launch an inflateable toy boat or kayak, or wade fish, or wade out and get our lure un-hung, we need to leave our gun concealed somewhere on the bank. Just gotta take a towel to conceal while unholstering it from my IWB holster. I better take a trigger lock too, in case some kids grab the towel to dry off after swimming .... (Kidding, I'm not going to any COE property, even bordered by State Parks, City Parks etc., until they fix their regulations) But, you see how silly it is.


While fishing from the bank, I'd hate to hear my child who went swimming, yelling "HELP I'M DROWNING," then have to make a quick run to the car to lock my gun in the car and cover it with a towel, then run really fast back to the lake to jump in and save him....if I make it back in time.

I'm even avoiding rivers where COE has lakes along the way, in case the wind drifts my kayak, or in case I'm fighting a 20 pound striper or a big catfish, and it pulls my little plastic boat across the imaginary line separating River Authority property from COE property.

BoneDigger wrote:It is my understanding that the legal council at TPWD is checking on how the Federal laws are effected by TPWD leasing of properties such as Ray Rob, Atlanta, etc. As soon as I hear something I will let you know.

All state parks that are not leased from the COE are legal for concealed carry. As soon as I know about the COE properties I will pass it along.

Todd

I'd be wiiling to bet Carter Smith sends you the same letter in the mail that I got after I contacted the Governor who asked TPWD to look into State Parks Leased from COE and reply to me. But yes, let us know whatever you get from them too. I put an excerpt from the letter he sent me on page 1 of this thread.

joe817 wrote:My Lord RPB, you are giving me schizophrenia, just by trying to read some very technical, complicated and VERY well researched and answered legal questions!

I don't know whether to ,or , or while I'm . But I always go !

In all seriousness, thanks so much for trying to tackle a most perplexing dilemma.

LOL I gotta tellya, Our United States and State Represenatatives and Senators don't seem to understand it either. (Judging by some e-mail replies) They thought they cleared it all up in 2007 and 2009 with the LCRA-Lower Colorado River Authority Parks+State Parks+National Park+National/Federal Wildlife Preserve laws allowing carry, must not have thought about US Army Corps of Engineers .... and I'm not sure about OTHER River Authorities Parks/places to launch kayaks/picnic/camp etc etc ( See River Authorities http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/landwater/w ... ties.phtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

They need a US law, allowing carry on USACOE, and a GENERAL State law allowing carry at ANY River Authority property, excepting inside the premesis or within so many feet of the Power Plant or Power generating facility (Dam etc). However, some nut up there in Washington is occupying all their time with some crazy healthcare junk that he is pretending is for our own good, and of course, our State guys only meet every couple of years.


What is interesting is MANY of us launch kayaks and fish in the San Gabriel River (Brazos River Authority) where it is Ok to carry, along with Georgetown City Parks etc, but it crosses TWO USACOE lakes on the way .... so don't cross that imaginary line painted on the water with your gun....


Imagine a Kayaking CAMPING trip vacation .... along this( San Gabriel river Brazos River Authority) ... (LOTS of us do it every year)

There are two major impoundments of the river: Lake Georgetown along the North Fork, and Granger Lake, about 25 miles (40 km) below the confluence. Both are U.S. Army Corps of Engineers impoundments. The San Gabriel River eventually drains into the Brazos River northeast of College Station. There is a city park in Georgetown at the confluence of the North and South Forks.

"Example, Phone call for silliness' sake : Honey, meet me at the upper end of Lake Georgetown, put my gun in the car, meet me at the lower end, give it back to me, then, 3 hours later, meet me at the Upper end of Granger Lake, put my gun in the car, meet me at the lower end, give it back to me. We'll be camping in tents out of the kayak on Brazos River Authority land so we can carry there and have protection if we have a rattlesnake or bobcat attack us in the tent ...Yes, I wish you could have come on our family vacation too, but someone has to drive the guns around USACOE property for us ... the kids say hi ... Yes I caught us some fish for dinner, , wish you were here, and we only had 1 water moccassin try to get in Christie's kayak with her upstream, we dispatched it with snakeshot, so bring another snakeshot shell in 9mm, could have used your .40 then too. We'll meet you at Blue Hole CITY PARK and you can have some leftovers maybe; hold on dear, I need to tell the kids to paddle faster .... I hear banjo music and either some wild boar, or someone squeeling like a pig ..."
http://parks.georgetown.org/blue-hole/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(Photo near BLUE HOLE, on the San Gabriel River)

If our U.S. Congressmen carried, on a trip from say Galveston to Austin, had to have someone take their guns out of their cars in Pasadena, and give them to another person to carry around the Houston city limits to return them in Katy, then meet them later in LaGrange to take them again and drive around the Smithville city limits to Giddings, so they could all meet in Bastrop and get their guns back before they continued onto Austin ... They'd know what it's like. Navigable Rivers are our highways, kayaks our vehicles, however, kayaks/canoes/boats don't fall under the Motorist Protection Act which applies to U.S Highways/Interstate Highways within Texas. But nothing similar regarding Federal US Army Corps of Engineers property along our Texas navigable waterways.

[ /rant ]

Rex B wrote:Email sent, will report results.
thanks

Any time
Post up any reply you get

More info on Ray Roberts (DOC)
http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/lewisv ... oberts.doc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
All public land at Ray Roberts Lake is owned by the Federal Government and is under the administration of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (Corps). The Corps and the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department (TPWD) are partners in the daily management of public land at Ray Roberts Lake. TPWD manages all parks (except the Overlook Park)

Note: The Ray Roberts WMA is included in TPWD’s Public Hunting Lands Program. All hunters entering the WMA must possess on their person a Texas Parks and Wildlife Annual Hunting Permit and must enter the WMA only at points designated for general public access.

The Greenbelt Corridor is dedicated for public recreation and is currently managed by Texas Parks and Wildlife as a controlled access area. The Greenbelt Corridor area will continue to be managed as a controlled access recreation area similar to park areas.

Ray Roberts is leased to Texas Parks and Wildlife SEE: http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/rayroberts/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Complete PDF of Title 36 CFR http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/rayrob ... itle36.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Check with TPWD about specific rules and regulations
------------
Whitney looks complicated, walk on this path the TPWD made and manages, don't step over there on COE property ...
Don't put the tent too close to the water or you may be on COE property if it rains and the water comes higher


If you go to ANY COE property that TPWD says it's OK, I'd take a printed copy of them saying it's OK with you. And be sure they answer your specific questions on it, so the LEO doesn't say "Yes you were legal in the Park on the shore, but you stepped in the COE water now Bubba ... Federal Crime ....."

The same goes for Granger, Stillhouse Hollow, Lake Georgetown ... and any other COE lakes the TPWD Game Wardens or Park Rangers patrol. (Some Parks have non-LEO "Park Security" officers in addition to Game Wardens and Park Rangers)
The Corps of Engineers have jurisdiction over 24 lakes and 18 lakes are under the jurisdiction of other authorities, water districts counties, or municipalities – all of these agencies operate numerous parks and camping facilities.

Rex B wrote:So, I understand that lakes with State Parks, it's OK to carry in the parks themselves.
Am I to understand that is is also legal to carry on a boat, out on the lake?

Lake Whitney is the locale I have in mind.

Lake Whitney and Whitney State Park is the very reason I started e-mailing the Senators, Governor etc etc ...

Whitney DIFFERS from Ray Roberts ....
COE website indicates that all of Ray Roberts is LEASED TO TPWD (The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Fort Worth District welcomes you to Ray Roberts Lake. The lake is located in Denton County,Texas.

Ray Roberts is leased to Texas Parks and Wildlife and as partners we are working toward the preservation and protection of the natural resources in and around the lake.

BUT COE website indicates that Lake Whitney IS NOT LEASED TO TPWD (Except the State Park)..... However, there is a State Park there you may carry in.

http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/whitney/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/find ... e_whitney/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Reservoir Controlling Authority
US Army Corps of Engineers
285 CR 3602
Clifton, Texas 76634
(254) 694-3189
Fishing Regulations...Statewide regulations apply to all fishes.




Here's your safest bet probably. Because no one has clearly stated the consequences to me of being in a State Park, then launching my kayak FROM the State Park into the COE lake ... or wadefishing in the COE lake FROM the State Park shore.
Per Carter Smith, Executive Director, Texas Parks and Wildlife, Contact:
Mr. Wes Masur, State Park Law Enforcement Director, 512-389-8001 or E-mail him at wes.masur@tpwd.state.tx.us

The Governor, Rick Perry, who replied and forwarded my issues to Carter Smith, the Executive Director of TPWD

I just got a letter fromCarter Smith... dated January 12, 2010. This is the only definitive answer on the State Park/COE issue.

"State park properties leased from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers are subject to the rules and regulations of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department. Therefore, a loaded, concealed handgun carried by a valid license holder is allowed within any Texas State Park."

"If you have any further questions about firearms in Texas State Parks, pleae contact Mr. Wes Masur, State Park Law Enforcement Director, at 512-389-8001 or via email at wes.masur@tpwd.state.tx.us "
( Mr. Wes Masur, State Park Law Enforcement Director, 512-389-8001 or E-mail him at wes.masur@tpwd.state.tx.us )

Carter Smith, Executive Director of TPWD

-------------

Ray Roberts is leased to Texas Parks and Wildlife SEE: http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/rayroberts/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Complete PDF of Title 36 CFR http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/rayrob ... itle36.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Check with TPWD about specific rules and regulations





According to Carter Smith, Executive Director of TPWD,
CHLs are allowed to carry ...

Only inside the State Parks and/or property leased to TPWD (Ray Roberts is leased to TPWD )
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/spdest/find ... erts_lake/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not on other US Army Corps of Engineers property which is NOT leased to TPWD ... http://www.swf-wc.usace.army.mil/rayroberts/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

----------
Senator John Cornyn said in January:
the Bureau of Land Management and the United States Forest Service allow the transporting and carrying of firearms on federal lands in accordance with the laws of the host state where these two agencies manage lands.

However, the National Parks Service (NPS) and the Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) are governed by separate federal statutes and have developed differing sets of firearms regulations.
-------------------
My layman's conclusion:

National Parks and Wildlife Refuges are legal now too ....... the USCOE though is separate from all 5 of the above, and still confusing sometimes I think. But, if you are in an area owned by USCOE (U.S. Army Corps of Engineers), but either leased to TPWD or a State/National Park, you should be OK.
-------
When I want to go somewhere, first I check TPWD, then the others ...

Texas Parks and Wildlife Department
National Parks Service-
National Wildlife Preserves
Bureau of Land Management-
United States Forest Service
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
----------

See: http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild/hu ... _legal.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(ALSO COVERS U.S. FOREST SERVICE UNITS in Texas managed by TPWD)
NOTICE: The prohibited acts and other public hunting regulations
do not in any way restrict a person having a concealed
handgun license from possessing a concealed handgun,
loaded or unloaded, on public hunting lands in strict accordance
with the concealed handgun laws.