TexasCHLforum.com

katmandu wrote:Here's what's on the door of the Texoma Medical Center Outpatient Rehabilitation center in Denison, on Hwy. 84 (as of today, Sept. 28, 2012)

[ Image ]

You already know, but for future readers running across this:
Non-licensees probably will be charged with 30.05 Trespassing as well as other charges.

http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and

(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.

30.05 differs from 30.06
Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN.

SO
By actually posting the 30.05 sign, they provide proof for a defense to prosecution to licensees, by providing the sign, they proved 30.05 (f)(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden;
so by virtue of us fulfilling 30.05(f)(2) we have our defense
30.05(f)(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.

That was really nice of them to do that, they could post a 30.06 sign, but instead posted a defense for licensees.
I wouldn't bother thanking them though ... the one who ordered the sign might not know what the sign installer did, or the employees might not understand what the management did ... let sleepin' dogs sleep and let the ignorant "feel safe" because they know the sign protects them, backed up by cameras maybe, so they can feel safe protected by a camera and a sign. and a law saying criminals can't do bad things and stuff.

xb12s wrote:I just took a look at the comparison between the new verbiage and the old verbiage sign. I'll have to commit that to memory (Subchapter H , Chapter 411 VS 4413).

or, just ignore anything with a (29ee)

When I see the ee I walk by singing ... E E oooh ahh ahh ooh ahh walla walla bing bang .. or something like that
(unless it's on a courthouse or place that's actually off limits) I know Courts are off limits even with no sign, but one court here has the 29ee sign ... so that's one I don't go past, but not due to the signage, which could be ignored, but because it's a Court and you can't carry there ....

xb12s wrote:I don't know if I should tag on here or start a new thread. I have two questions.

I went into my credit union - JSC Federal Credit Union. The branch I went into (this was not the main branch) had a 30.06 sign posted, but the the letters were not in all caps.

Would the use of mixed case letters disqualify the sign (the language of 30.06 says "block letters")?

Would JSC Federal Credit Union somehow qualify as federal property?

It is not NASA itself, but I'm not sure how the bank/credit union ownership works. Usually, the union part of it defines it as being democratically owned by it's members, right? But that doesn't really define the land ownership aspect of things or how the government/lawyer might view the property.

not in all caps.
They aren't required to be all caps, just 1" or larger block letters. Lowercase letters can be block letters too/ they aren't script.

My dad was at one time an officer of the Southwestern Bell Telephone Company Federal Credit Union ... had nothing to do with being a federal property or federal employees....still, don't carry past a valid and enforceable 30.06 sign

is it constitutional for a company to restrict the Rights of the people?

Does the company have a Constitution? Some churches do when they constitute a new branch of a church...

Constitution
A body of fundamental principles or established precedents according to which a state or other organization is acknowledged to be governed.

A constitution is a set of rules that defines a nation and its government. It grants authority to the government and sets out how it will operate.

Companies can fire you for looking an inch taller today than yesterday, wearing the wrong socks or as most do ... for "no reason at all" (so you can't sue for being terminated "for the wrong reason"

Texas has a constitution.
Texas isn't a "right to work" state. Work is selling your time to someone ... and slavery is history, so you can also quit for any reason you want too ... and work for someone who you want to work for.
=====================

proper 30.06 notice can be the big sign, or written in an Employee handbook a card or other document
http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... /PE.30.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Notice" means oral or written communication,,,

b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.

(c) In this section:

(3) "Written communication" means:

(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or

Come to think of it ,,, the 1" letter size requirement for a SIGN
rather than an 8-1/2 by 11" page on a "card or other document" taped to a door/window with the proper language might not be such a strong defense with the wrong jury

3) "Written communication" means:

(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or

(B) a sign posted on the property that:

sublevel wrote:thanks c-dub

yeah I really wish there was more do's and don't about carrying in class and I know we didn't get to keep our booklets :(

flat out, is it illegal to carry at a city park?

Generally-> "City Parks" -> Not "illegal" unless the park land is owned by and leased from the US Army Corps of Engineers, because a city is preempted/can't pass laws restricting firearms carried by licensees of the type for which a license was issued by the State.
City/County parks on land owned by the USACE may be in Georgetown, and Harris County, but that situation is rare, most city parks are city owned and perfectly legal for a CHL to carry there.

Even if an outdated "city ordinance" is on the books .... see "form letter" for State law citations/ links ) viewtopic.php?f=7&t=48049&p=588091&hili ... er#p588096" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That letter works sometimes
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=188&p=581186&hilit= ... er#p581186" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=42833&p=516728&hil ... ry#p516724" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Got word today that at the recommedation of the assistant City Manager and the Chief of Police the City Counsel "voted" to remove 30.06 signs at city hall and allow CHL's to attend City Counsel meetings. The assistant City Manager told the counsel that if a shooter started shooting counsel members during a meeting that he would want all the CHL guns he could get into the chambers. The Police Chief agreed. Apparently so did the counsel members.

I am no lawyer, but I bought lunch for some. That's my layman's opinion.

AdioSS
I'm sure they meant 30.05, because if they meant 30.06, they'd have posted a 30.06 sign with proper language.
And as you see 30.05 has a defense to prosecution for licensees.

(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and

(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.

Looks like an old sign which has the effect of a gunbuster sign, but stronger notice to unlicensed persons of the trespassing Statute applicable to them than a simple gunbuster sign.

If they meant 30.06 on that sign instead of 30.05, theyd have used the proper sign.

(3) "Written communication" means:

(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or

(B) a sign posted on the property that:

(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;

(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and

(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

The thing is, is that sign may be so old it might pre-date the 30.06 law. So intent can't be guessed, but proper "notice" wasn't given to a licensee to make it enforceable. Could be a beat the rap, but take a ride to jail thing, depending on officer's knowledge. And in some places a hire a lawyer thing, depending on D.A./Prosecutor's knowledge.


"biker hangout." .... alcohol? 51%?

IANL

Location of the bottom signs?

I mean it looks like one hospitals are required to post, however hospitals aren't off limits to CHLs if there is no 30.06 sign. However, hospitals are still required to post that same sign, which itself is unenforceable pertaining to licensees, unless there is also a 30.06 sign.

If it's on front of a nightclub .... the red color 51 may have faded?

Second look:

looks like a paper photocopy of a 51% sign someone taped to a door ... NONE of the red ink copied as the border, the print at the bottom etc?

Where was this?

What kind of establishment?

If hospital I"d look and see if there was a 30.06

If restaurant/bowling alley/movie theater/ whatever/any other place, I'd ask to see their liquor license .. I don't go into bars

This from a different thread here
Look at the license.

The SIGN=RED indicates a red 51% sign should be posted
where a SIGN=BLUE indicates a blue UNLICENSED possession sign should be posted
Sometimes business owners haven't learned their colors yet and post the wrong signs, but the TABC license should be correct

Are you carrying pursuant to Article 4413 (29ee) ?
I never have since it was repealed before I was licensed under Chapter 411 Government Code.

See this thread (Can I carry in a hospital if there is no 30.06 sign? ) and below: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=36032" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See the first post in this thread re: 4413
- Old, incorrect verbiage (4413)


YES YOU CAN CARRY - Old, incorrect verbiage (4413).

More importantly is the absence of a compliant 30.06 sign.

I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see a compliant 30.06 sign in that photo you attached, which must be posted if a Hospital wants to restrict licensees in your photo, so I would carry.

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:

(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing home licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate;

i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

The sign you attached is not a 30.06 sign, and "by law" you can not carry if it was a 30.06 sign, which it isn't ...

So, no 30.06 sign = no violation.
I spent my money at the gun show and can't post bail for you and if you ask hospital administrators they'll give valid oral notice, after which you'll have to leave immediately or else be arrested, and they'll post the correct sign next week, but remain silent and concealed and you aren't breaking any law.
That's my layman's opinion, worth every penny you paid for it..

houston2458 wrote:What about this sign? Is it not enforceable?

Only gives notice to people who have no license that they aren't carrying concealed legally and that unlicensed persons shouldn't be carrying there .... it doesn't give effective notice to licensees at all, so it's not enforceable as to licensees, and really just a "feel good" sign since non-licensees shouldn't be carrying anyway.

Rather than asking them and being given "verbal notice" and then being required to leave else get arrested, you could call the number on the bottom of the sign and make laughing noises I suppose.

Now the "no concealed weapons" part concerns me because I learned that a hairbrush or keys across the eyes of an assailant could be a weapon, so have any female remove keys, brushes etc from their purses prior to entering so that they are not "concealed" because they have no license to carry those. You having a license means you can ignore that sign regarding a concealed handgun.

Right.

I was just saying, the way the laws currently are written, it seems to me that if a Hospital is "required" to post a sign.
AND if they post a sign other than a 30.06 sign, (similar to a 51% sign without the red 51%)they complied with what they are required to do. However, such sign, under 30.06, does NOT give "effective notice" under 30.06 to a CHL. If a hospital wants to also post a 30.06 sign, they may.

CHLs may not carry past a 30.06 sign.

(I"m not including "school" hospitals such as UTMB, etc. etc. etc. in this statement, just private hospitals ... school property is another matter.)

That's my layman's opinion, I ain't a lawyer.

W42 wrote:legal? at Seton Hospital off 38th in Austin, TX

I gotta tell you. If the Attorney I worked for (also a CHL) told me to draft a sign compliant with 411.204 Government Code which requires hospitals to post signs which are non-compliant with 30.06 ... I'd have drafted that same sign, and I'm sure it would say at the bottom it was approved by Hospital's legal dept too.. Hospital in compliance with 411, without making the supervising Attorney violate 30.06. Innocent patrons better protected from evil persons desiring what's in the pharmacy at any cost. All the good guys in compliance with current codes..as well as a hospital in compliance.

Now if there is also a 30.06 sign, I sure wouldn't carry past any 30.06 sign intentionally. If I was on a posted property without having received effective notice, as in if no sign posted at the only entrance I ever went into and am clueless about other entrances, never having been to one, and told by someone in authority to leave, I'd make tracks right away instead of refusing to leave (30.06 Penal Code).

I have been to hospitals which were posted 30.06, and others which were not, and some which apparently didn't bother with putting up a 411.204 sign.

I won't intentionally carry past a 30.06 sign, but criminals would intentionally.