In an earlier post, you made a statement that seemed to impugn the motives of those opposed to what these Utah instructors are doing...CollinLeon wrote:The Utah instructors who are advertising are doing it because they believe that it is in their self-interest to do so... Maybe that is for money, maybe it is for principle, but regardless, it is something that they believe to be in their self-interest. To do otherwise is not rational behavior. I'm not saying that there is anything inherently wrong with doing it for money. You just need to be honest about it. Capitalism is GOOD.skub wrote:If you are going to argue that it is all about the money, then you cannot forget the Utah CWP instructors who advertise their Utah classes as a way to get around a Texas CHL. Are you going to argue that their motives are based on principle, or are they in it for the money too?I would say that advertising is at the top of list of things driven by money.
Sometimes, we do things that are not in our self-interest, but rarely intentionally. For us guys, it is part of surviving long enough to propagate our genes. Up until 25 or so, us guys tend to do really stupid things -- usually preceded by something like, "Yo! Check this out!"... It's one of the reasons that more males are born than females -- up to 25 or so, our life expectancy is not all that great... As I've often said, the leading cause of death to guys before 25 or so is testosterone... After 25 or so, it is estrogen, but it is a very slow and painful death...
As I read this comment, I interpret you to be saying that there are two, and only two reasons that one would oppose their tactics:CollinLeon wrote:
As in most things in life, if you want to find the real reason for something, all you have to do is "follow the money"...
The people who are making a big deal of this are either against concealed carry completely (and just want to use this to nibble away at our 2nd Amendment rights) or they have a financial interest in having Texas only accept the CHLs from other states if they are not Texas residents.
1. They are against the 2nd Amendment.
2. They are motivated by money.
Your comment leaves these two options as the only possibilities. This interpretation is supported by the post that I responded to...
So, I can reasonably understand you to say that if you are against what these Utah instructors are doing, you are either...skub wrote:If you are going to argue that it is all about the money, then you cannot forget the Utah CWP instructors who advertise their Utah classes as a way to get around a Texas CHL. Are you going to argue that their motives are based on principle, or are they in it for the money too?CollinLeon wrote: I say just look at who is against it... If they are CHL instructors, then they have a financial interest in Texas residents being required to get a Texas CHL since any Utah instructors are taking away their business. The media makes a bid deal about it because for the most part, the media is full of a bunch of leftist pinko's who are against the 2nd Amendment anyway.
1. A leftist pinko
2. Motivated by money.
Now this last one may not seem bad to you, but in my view, and I think in many of the people here, your statement essentially accuses them of being greedy or mercenary. It does not leave them the option of being motivated by something higher, like principle. Now, please understand, I am all for capitalism, but capitalism without principles leaves room for all kinds of evil - a drug dealer, a pimp, or a thief could all be considered "capitalists" if the pursuit of money is the only motivation.
So, my first point is that, whether you want to recognize it or not, you have presumed to know the motives of everyone opposed to what these Utah instructors are doing, and you have impugned those motives.
Now, my second point is that rational debate requires you to be consistent in your treatment of the two sides of the issue. Of the two options you present, the Texas CHL instructors that you mention cannot be presumed to be lefty pinkos who oppose the 2nd Amendment, so that means that they can only be motivated by greed. If that is the only option for them, then it is only rational to assume that it is the only option for the Utah instructors. But you do not do that - you allow that they may be motivated by principle...
So, my second point is that you are inconsistent in your treatment of the two sides.CollinLeon wrote:
The Utah instructors who are advertising are doing it because they believe that it is in their self-interest to do so... Maybe that is for money, maybe it is for principle, but regardless, it is something that they believe to be in their self-interest. To do otherwise is not rational behavior. I'm not saying that there is anything inherently wrong with doing it for money. You just need to be honest about it. Capitalism is GOOD.
Sometimes, we do things that are not in our self-interest, but rarely intentionally. For us guys, it is part of surviving long enough to propagate our genes. Up until 25 or so, us guys tend to do really stupid things -- usually preceded by something like, "Yo! Check this out!"... It's one of the reasons that more males are born than females -- up to 25 or so, our life expectancy is not all that great... As I've often said, the leading cause of death to guys before 25 or so is testosterone... After 25 or so, it is estrogen, but it is a very slow and painful death...
There is one last point that I feel compelled to make - your notion that, "Sometimes, we do things that are not in our self-interest, but rarely intentionally," is, I believe, mistaken. We could not have enjoyed our recent Independence Day celebration if that were true. Men do not willingly and persistently go to war and die for their country because they believe it is in their self-interest. They do so because they believe in higher values like liberty, justice and sacrifice for others.
