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Return to “My hatred of the .40 S&W, by request”

by OldCannon
Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:32 pm
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: My hatred of the .40 S&W, by request
Replies: 51
Views: 8481

Re: My hatred of the .40 S&W, by request

Medic624 wrote:
Hmmmmm. Ya know... That's an interesting idea... I wonder if anyone has done recoil studies using say an XD .40, XD .45 and a 9mm all service model 4" with offnthe shelf range ammo to measure the energy etc...
Not to my knowledge. You can go to zenofguns.com and see some charts regarding recoil, but I haven't seen a definitive study, nor do I know of a device that accurately measures recoil, other than a simple single accelerometer measuring the rearward force (which can be calculated if actual muzzle velocity is known, plus a few other parameters like bullet weight).

Would love to see something like that though.
by OldCannon
Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:25 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: My hatred of the .40 S&W, by request
Replies: 51
Views: 8481

Re: My hatred of the .40 S&W, by request

gigag04 wrote:
CC Italian wrote: why would I not carry the heavier, bigger, faster bullet?
9mm is faster than all the above, except the 10mm.
oh, man, do we have to do this again? Fast != Better.

The image below is from http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defen ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. That page alone should keep everybody reading for a while, then maybe this thread will die (if only I would stop responding to Giga's posts :biggrinjester: ).

(Just to be clear: I'm not saying Giga's opinion is wrong, but I am saying I don't share his sentiments)

Image
by OldCannon
Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:28 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: My hatred of the .40 S&W, by request
Replies: 51
Views: 8481

Re: My hatred of the .40 S&W, by request

gigag04 wrote:
lkd wrote:
stash wrote:I wonder if the standard issue for the FBI is still the Glock in .40, I think the 23 and 27? I think their SWAT and HRT guys have some type of 1911.
SWAT and HRT are SMG/Rifle-response type teams. What sidearm they carry is far less important than their main weapon. Field officers, however, only have one weapon on their body.

I think these "caliber wars" never play out well. The 40S&W has a LONG record now of being an effective defensive caliber. So does the 9mm and the 45ACP. You don't have to like any or all of them, but if you want to say one is statistically less effective than the other, you better be willing to drag up a LOT of empirical evidence. Agencies all over the US use a variety of calibers, from the 5.7mm to the 45ACP. It's true the .40S&W is popular, and economies of scale will certainly have an effect on caliber selection with a lot of agencies. Ballistics-wise though, the difference isn't very much between it and the 9mm or 45ACP in defensive loads.
Which is exactly why issues like felt recoil and ammo cost weigh heavily in this discussion.
ok, but my point is that felt recoil is not exclusively determined by caliber. Sadly, there isn't enough research done yet on actual vs perceived recoil of firearms. It's easy to measure the force parallel to the bore, but nothing really measures all 4 degrees of freedom that constitutes "recoil" (barrel axis force, upward/downward force, and torsional forces along the barrel axis and perpindicular to the barrel axis on the horizontal). And if THAT isn't nerdy enough for you, I don't know what is :mrgreen:
by OldCannon
Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:56 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: My hatred of the .40 S&W, by request
Replies: 51
Views: 8481

Re: My hatred of the .40 S&W, by request

stash wrote:I wonder if the standard issue for the FBI is still the Glock in .40, I think the 23 and 27? I think their SWAT and HRT guys have some type of 1911.
SWAT and HRT are SMG/Rifle-response type teams. What sidearm they carry is far less important than their main weapon. Field officers, however, only have one weapon on their body.

I think these "caliber wars" never play out well. The 40S&W has a LONG record now of being an effective defensive caliber. So does the 9mm and the 45ACP. You don't have to like any or all of them, but if you want to say one is statistically less effective than the other, you better be willing to drag up a LOT of empirical evidence. Agencies all over the US use a variety of calibers, from the 5.7mm to the 45ACP. It's true the .40S&W is popular, and economies of scale will certainly have an effect on caliber selection with a lot of agencies. Ballistics-wise though, the difference isn't very much between it and the 9mm or 45ACP in defensive loads.
by OldCannon
Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:58 am
Forum: General Gun, Shooting & Equipment Discussion
Topic: My hatred of the .40 S&W, by request
Replies: 51
Views: 8481

Re: My hatred of the .40 S&W, by request

Carry what gives you confidence.

If you look at Glock compact models in 9mm, 40, and 45, you'll see that (given standard magazine loads and using defensive bullet weights - 147gr, 185, and 200gr), the amount of mass you put toward the BG is about the same (2205, 2145, and 2000, respectively) if you empty the magazine (and presumptively get hits :mrgreen: ). Felt and perceived recoil seem to have a huge effect on caliber preference, as well as a person's individual ability to get sights back on target. Recoil, however, it not a function of the cartridge alone. Barrel axis height has a VERY big effect on felt recoil as well. Given the same cartridge, recoil with an M&P 40 will feel very different from Steyr S40.

Carry what gives you confidence ;-)

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