TexasCHLforum.com

Ruark wrote:

baldeagle wrote: I take exception to this on two grounds. First of all, as I pointed out earlier the doctor got the 6 out of 7 number from CDC statistics for all gunshot victims across the US for one year. If you want to argue with that, then I don't know what to say. Do you really think the CDC is lying?

Second, to make a blanket statement like "Trust me, if somebody puts a +P+ round through at attacker's chest and/or head, he's going down, and for good" flies in the face of the very video that we're discussing, where the doctor showed a patient who was shot COM with a .45 and survived. Representative Giffords was shot in the head, and she's walking around, living proof that your statement isn't always true.

I really don't want to start a back and forth debate here, but it would be helpful if you would at least read a post before you spit on it.

Did I say the CDC is lying? No, I'm just clarifying what those statistics mean. It's a survival rate for ALL gunshot victims, which includes those who shoot themselves in the foot. It's not like if you shoot somebody through the ears with a .500 Nitro Express, he has a 6/7 chance of surviving.

I'm sorry, but that's plainly false. At about 1:25 in the tape the Dr. discusses accidental shootings. He puts up a slide that shows 17,215 unintentional shootings that result in 276 deaths. He then compares that to 3,000,000 motor vehicle injuries per year and says that gunshot cases should not be much of a problem for us. Then he points out that, however, people use guns to assault other people. At 1:42 on the tape he puts up a slide that shows firearm suicides in 2008 were 18,251 and assaults with a firearm that result in death were 12,209. Then he puts up a slide that shows assaults with firearms resulted in 56,626 injuries and 12,209 deaths for a total of 68,835 assaults in 2008. Those are the numbers which he referred to in his "6 of 7" survive statement. And that is the number that is relevant to a discussion of how survivable an assault might be when a CHL is involved in a gun fight.

Rather than "spit[ting]" on your post, I'm trying to hold you to account for the facts. You have insisted that these facts aren't relevant to the discussion.

Ruark wrote:Nor does it account for the accidental injuries and the misses that hit non-vital areas. Statistically, looking at ALL gunshot wounds, that 6 out of 7 might be true.

And this

Ruark wrote:it's really meaningless to make a blanket statement like "6 out of 7 people with gunshot wounds survive."

As I have now shown you twice, that is false. Please stop ignoring it and repeating your claims. You may believe whatever you want, but it's dangerous to mislead the readers of this forum with "facts" that simply aren't true.

Ruark wrote:Same applies for the other statement. I didn't say COM, I said chest or head. Yes, Giffords survived a 9mm through the head, but she was bent over at the time - the round entered the top of her head and came out the back, just clipping part of the brain. She wasn't exactly shot between the eyes.

And I pointed out that the Dr. showed a case of a person shot in the chest with a .45 who survived. And you never said, "right between the eyes". And even in that extreme case, there are people who survive. Here's a story of a Tampa, FL woman who survived being shot "right between the eyes" with a .44 magnum. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351472,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ruark wrote:And yes, if I put a potent expanding round through your chest (i.e., heart) or through your head (i.e. in the forehead and out the back), you ARE going down. For good.
Since you seem to like to change the parameters as soon as you're called out on them, here's a guy who was shot point blank in the forehead and survived. http://blog.pennlive.com/lvbreakingnews ... ing_s.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ruark wrote:And yes, if you get immediate medical attention, you have a greater chance of surviving (if your head isn't blown off) than if you don't. Wow, whoever said that must be a real genius.

My whole purpose in these statements is to simply point out that saying "6 out of 7 gunshot victims survive" is so broad and global, it's really meaningless.

Exactly. Your whole purpose is based upon a false statement and is in fact false. Readers need to know that.

The fact is that handguns are not the deadly killers that the media makes them out to be. That was the purpose of this video - to point that out.

People get shot all the time and survive what you seem to think are unsurvivable wounds. A CHL holder who defends themselves from an assault had better not rely on your advice or they may find themselves the ones in the morgue. Shoot for COM and continue shooting until the threat stops. NEVER assume that your one accurately placed shot will end the fight. Even a shot directly to the location of the heart can be deflected by bone and exit the body harmlessly. Even a shot between the eyes can, as I've just shown you, not take a person down. Even a point blank shot to the forehead.

Please, please stop misleading people.

Ruark wrote:

magicglock wrote:I think the numbers are skewed from the doctors view. Yes, 6 of 7 that end up in the ER survive but that does not include those that never made it to the ER. For an accurate representation of the survival rate you have to count both methods of transportation, the coroner van and the ambulance.

Nor does it account for the accidental injuries and the misses that hit non-vital areas. Statistically, looking at ALL gunshot wounds, that 6 out of 7 might be true. Trust me, if somebody puts a +P+ round through at attacker's chest and/or head, he's going down, and for good. In addition, there's the huge variability, mostly psychological, of how people react to being shot. Some fall to the ground in hysteria if they get winged by a .22. Others take a cylinder full of .357s and they're still standing up and running around. There are just a huge, huge number of variables here; it's really meaningless to make a blanket statement like "6 out of 7 people with gunshot wounds survive."

I take exception to this on two grounds. First of all, as I pointed out earlier the doctor got the 6 out of 7 number from CDC statistics for all gunshot victims across the US for one year. If you want to argue with that, then I don't know what to say. Do you really think the CDC is lying?

Second, to make a blanket statement like "Trust me, if somebody puts a +P+ round through at attacker's chest and/or head, he's going down, and for good" flies in the face of the very video that we're discussing, where the doctor showed a patient who was shot COM with a .45 and survived. Representative Giffords was shot in the head, and she's walking around, living proof that your statement isn't always true.

The entire point of the video, for me at least, was that gun shot wounds are very likely survivable if you get medical treatment quickly. Very few shots kill immediately. The vast majority kill through blood loss.

Did you even watch the video?

The more I thought about this video, the more I realized that i had learned something very valuable. I've never been in a firefight, so I've never been shot. In my endless gaming scenarios, I never get shot, because getting shot meant dying. Now I realize that getting shot means you have a chance of dying, but you also have a very good chance of surviving (depending on where you get hit, of course!) So I think my fear of getting hit has been lessened, which should make me less apprehensive (and therefore more steady on the trigger) in a real firefight. Mind you, I still don't want to get in one, and I pray that I never do, but if it should happen, I think my fear will be less. Besides, if you get hit and you still know it, you're probably OK. If you get hit in the "right" place, you won't last long anyway.

magicglock wrote:I think the numbers are skewed from the doctors view. Yes, 6 of 7 that end up in the ER survive but that does not include those that never made it to the ER. For an accurate representation of the survival rate you have to count both methods of transportation, the coroner van and the ambulance.

That number was based on the CDC's data that shows that 6 of 7 survive, not on ER data.

56,626 injured + 12,209 killed = 68,835
56,626/68,835 = 82.26%

6/7 = 85.71%

So the Doctor's approximation wasn't far enough off to quibble about and has nothing to do with how many make it to ER.

So who would have thought that 6 out of every 7 handgun shooting victims survive? Fascinating information about how the medical field continues to improve as they learn things. And a huge tip of the hat to our boys in the field who, by getting shot in battle, are making our survivability rates ever higher. Just one more way that our vets contribute to our well being, and one more reason to thank them profusely whenever we see them.