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srothstein wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:23 pm

...Erick Gelhaus’ talk about ready positions and “mistake of fact” shootings.

He reviewed many recent studies about the use of different ready positions affecting shooter ability to make correct use of force decisions. The high ready (gun near face, muzzle pointed up) is perhaps 0.1 sec faster to get gun to target than lower ready positions, but in well designed experiments, shooters using the high ready position made 30% more errors in shooting decisions. On the street this translates to “they shot people that should not have been shot”. Erick made the argument that lower ready positions sacrifice very little speed to provide significant reduction in unjustified use of force.

I think this is not a very good study and that it appears to conflate a correlation with a cause-effect relationship. I do not see how the position the gun is carried in could possibly affect the decision to shoot. Therefore I think there is some other factor that is affecting both the decision to shoot and the decision on how to carry. My initial gut guess would be a matter of training since both decisions are made based on training.

It is an interesting correlation, but it really means we need more research into it.

LTUME1978 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 1:07 pm My training comes from many classes with Paul Howe at CSAT. He recommends a high ready (muzzle up at about 70-75 degrees and close to the body (you can find that on some of his you tube or Facebook videos). He does that so that we can see the adversary for solid target discretion and NOT have the muzzle pointing at any part of anyone's body. He has us go the Sul position, if needed, due to people very close around us or moving through crowds. What Correia teaches is not good on either where he is holding the pistol or taking repeated bad shots just to best the clock as he did in the video.

Paul is very demanding on shot placement (spine box/high thoracic). For those that don't know him, he was career military with 10 years in Delta including visits to Mogadishu (team lead in "Black Hawk Down" event) and Panama as well as a lot of other places he can't talk about. His last years in Delta were spent training other Delta Team members. He survived all of that without being shot so I listen to what he tells me as his methods have worked well in very difficult situations. His standards test has someone going from his version of high ready to a shot in the spine box (6" X 13" box) in 1 sec or less. That is very doable with practice (and should be practiced often to maintain proficiency).

I highly recommend his training classes. Reasonably priced and you will learn a lot. Just something to think about.

oljames3 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 18, 2022 8:31 am For handguns, I like the way Karl Rehn explains ready positions in his safety briefing at KR Training. He uses a high compressed ready that is count two of the four-count draw stroke as describe by the late Paul Gomez. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OZfgutNufU This position places the handgun in an easily supported position that does not obscure one's view, points the muzzle in a safe direction, and keeps the muzzle below the berm.

...Erick Gelhaus’ talk about ready positions and “mistake of fact” shootings.

He reviewed many recent studies about the use of different ready positions affecting shooter ability to make correct use of force decisions. The high ready (gun near face, muzzle pointed up) is perhaps 0.1 sec faster to get gun to target than lower ready positions, but in well designed experiments, shooters using the high ready position made 30% more errors in shooting decisions. On the street this translates to “they shot people that should not have been shot”. Erick made the argument that lower ready positions sacrifice very little speed to provide significant reduction in unjustified use of force.