TexasCHLforum.com

pbwalker wrote: I never knew certain levels of membership also included home lots! Interesting...

That was actually a big part of the law suit against them. They never did develop them, not sure if they are ever going too. I would have sued them as well if I had paid $200,000 for a membership and they never delivered.

They do require the instructors to teach their exact curriculum. Pretty much reading exactly from a script. But they do change their curriculum all the time. If an instructor or student presents something different that is better suited for a certain purpose then they change their curriculum. I have been in classes where a student said it makes no sense to do it this way when this way would be better. I few months later I was taking a class and they did infact change their curriculum to that exact thing.

That part of things is nice because they are always trying to evolve and offer something better. I do agree that they should have a very strict culliculum for the foundation classes. It would suck taking a class one day, they a month later taking it from another instructor and a bunch of things being different. It is hard enough for new shooters to pick it up let alone having to try and mow through different ways of doing things.

One thing that never gets talked about because 90% of people only ever take their foundation classes is that the curriculum becomes not so important or strict. When you get to the advanced classes the instructors do get to start teaching other ways to do things and they are able to show you tactics and skill sets that they have specialized in. The strict modified weaver stance is no longer talked about. If you shoot better isosceles then you get to shoot that way. They could really care less as long as you are safe and are making good hits on the targets. In reality if a person ever got in a defensive situation, no one is going to have time to blade off and do everything just like they teach on the square range. They realize that and know that, and they teach all that is important is to keep the gun running and make hits. How you accomplish that does not really matter so much.

They have a guy come in that teaches their most advanced classes named Kirby Reed. The first time I took a class from him it was crazy how different what he taught was from FS's basic curriculum. But at the same time all of those basics I learn in the foundation classes made it so I could perform in his classes. Yes he may have done things differently, but at the same time all the important things I learned before like sight alignment, trigger control, recoil control, etc, etc. All fell right into place and allowed me to perform well in his classes.

jbirds1210 wrote:I attended (and graduated) the Front Sight four Defensive Pistol course. I even have my silver sealed photograph of Dr. Piazza to prove it!

Don't you just love those things.

Boy someone is trying to read way to far between the lines and is coming up with some interesting conclusions. To clarify so you don't have to try and read between the lines. I am a member of at least 10 to 12 other prominent gun forums. So yes, I can say all over the net because I spend a lot of time on these forums. And yes everytime people start trashing on FS based on uneducated assumptions and opinions I do what I can to correct them. Why? Because FS is a good place to train and to make new friends and acquaintances who are also gun loving people. So it really does bother me when people tear it down who don't really know.
And no, I don't work for them. And no I don't get kickbacks, and no I am not personally vested in their success. I just paid a little money up front and have gotten way more than my moneys worth out of it. Personally I plan on attenting other schools soon so I can get some diversity in my training as I realize there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Hoi Polloi wrote: I think the evidence stands for itself so I will not be posting to this thread any more.

I agree, and I am glad you wont be as you have no personal experience with the school and in reality your opinion holds no merit of the school or curriculum.

I think Tamie said it best.

baldeagle wrote:

HeeHaw wrote:The thing that kills me the most about all these haters is why are you trying so hard to tear apart a gun organization whose purpose is to train and educated people about firearms.

I thought your response was very useful and helpful -- up until you wrote this.

Well sorry you took it bad, but what I said is true. All over the net from many many people who have actually never taken a course from FS it is the same story. They heard from so and so that FS sucks so it must. Very very seldom do you ever hear from someone who has actually been there and spent time there that is sucks. (and sure there are going to be some, there always is, thats just business) Sure some people who may be well trained goes and takes the beginner class and finds it slow and repetitive but that is far from meaning it sucks. For someone who is new or don't know what they are doing, those first classes are amazing. At FS you have to go through the beginner classes before you can take the advanced classes and you have to score certain scores on the shooting test as prerequisite. The advanced classes are amazing, but sadly very few actually take them. They only buy memberships that allow them to take the beginner classes, and in reality FS mostly pushes the beginner classes is that is where they make most of their money. ANd without buying a membership it would be crazy to pay the list prices for those classes. I completely agree with that. So because many people only take that first class they have no idea what is offered beyond them.

Front SIghts main goal to educate people about shooting, it always has been and it always will be. Sure it is a business, and sure Naish is using it to try and make himself famous. That is obvious by all the material having multiple pics of him all over them. But the fact still remains that they train thousands of people every year and are fighting the fight of the 2nd amendment and all these haters are just tearing down a good thing when they have no personal knowledge of the school. I just get tired of everytime it is brought up on a forum those who don't know throwing out their uneducated opinions. If someone has been there and has something terrible to say about it and can back it up with personal experience then that is fine. But otherwise it is just hard to swallow when I have spent so much time there and know what it is like to sit and listen to a bunch of garbage.

The over-reaction of the "FS-defenders" to criticism does make me curious, though. Why the need to defend them in such emotional terms? Surely you can understand why some, like Hoi Polloi, might think that multiple accidental deaths and a class action lawsuit are justifiable reasons for being skeptical about the program?

Yet Gunsite has had a student killed while at a class being shot by other student. (not onsite, but it was at the hotel room as they were practicing so that may be a little harsh) Not to long ago a student was shot my another student in the shoot house being mistaken for a target. But it seems to be okay because they are Gunsite. All the negligence at FS have been students doing something to themselves. So that whole rational does not make sense to me. I am not justifying the negligence in anyway and think it is terrible in all cases, but it just cracks me up how people use that. It happens at virtually all the schools. When using guns at some point someone is going to get careless and it will happen. FS actually posts all the accidents right on their website. They do not try and hide it, they make it known and put it out there hoping other people can learn from it and not make the same mistakes. Apparently people still need to spend more time reading those accidents before they take a class, but alas

So anyway I will make my peace and end with that. Not my intention to offend, just stating it the way I see as being someone who has been their a lot and knows what FS is really all about. As far as those of use getting "emotional" about it. It is because we know what it is like and we enjoy so much going and spending a weekend training and making new friends with fellow gun lovers. Then to have people tear it down who have no idea, just aggravates us all.

I have taken over 30 classes from Front Sight, Handgun, rifle, precision rifle, their advanced tactic classes and have never once felt unsafe at any time, ever. I have never been muzzled with a gun while there. And I have taken classes where you work with teams in live fire scenarios.

And that reporter from KLAS tv in Vegas has had an agenda against front site as she is an antigun freak who does everything she can to make FS look bad. So take her words with a grain of salt as most of what she writes is incorrect once the real facts come out.

I agree Naish is way over the top with his marketing (it drives me crazy how every add or piece of info they give out has 4 or 5 pictures of him on it. The class completion certs are so ridiculous with his pictures all over them I would never even want to show them to someone) and his business plan seems odd, and the whole law suit thing? I probably would have sued them to if I would have spent that much money and got none of the promises out of it. But the business to this point has been successful, FS has been going since the mid 90s and it is still going today. And they do teach a lot of students. Personally I do not like Naish, I have went the rounds with him several times on the phone over different things. But the instructors at the school are a different story. They always treat me well and all seem to very much love their job. Which always makes the classes worth while and fun.

As far as not having EMTs on site, that is a flat out lie. A bunch of the instructors are certified EMTs and are constantly getting more training in that regard to better themselves. As far as being away from the hospital, that is true. Jesus, the guy that died on the zip line died on impact, CPR or any other medical attention would not and did not help him anyway, I assure you he got medical attention. The fault of that was not the young person running the scissor lift like everyone likes to claim. It was Jesus himself as he did not check the line to make sure it was clear after he was told to go when clear. Jesus was an experienced repeller and had been on that zip line many times before. It should have been obvious to himself that that scissor lift was in the way and that another student was still attached to the line. As well as it should have been obvious to the instructor that Jesus was not paying attention and should have kept ahold of him. The young person running the scissor lift did everything is his power to get the other person unclipped from the line in time or there may have been two deaths from the negligence that happened that day.

Every shooting that has happened is because of negligence of the student not the staff, I believe every incident has been a student shooting them-self in the leg and one in the support hand. They were not following the safety rules that are gone over for hours the first day of class. That is not the schools fault, it is called natural selection. If a person is an idiot and is negligent with a firearm and does not follow the 4 safety rules of gun handling then they are going to hurt themselves. That is a fact. Several of those people were military and police, so even those who have had more training than us lowly civilians can be negligent as well.

The thing that kills me the most about all these haters is why are you trying so hard to tear apart a gun organization whose purpose is to train and educated people about firearms. They are on our side, they want to save gun rights and they are trying to train people so they know how to safely use firearms and protect them selves. Sure there is probably other schools that are better, and I am sure FS is better than some as well. But that does not mean I am going to tear other schools apart because of crap I read on the net.

The school is not perfect, but that sure as heck does not mean a person cannot learn a ton and become a safer and more knowledgeable shooter. I had been shooting and hunting for 20 years before I took my first class there. I learned more about shooting that first class than I had my whole life. I am sure it would have been the same at many schools, but FS just happened to be the closest one to me so I bought in. I have not one single regret. I have spend a total of $6000 on two memberships for my wife and I, I can take every class they offer, she can take about 2/3s of them. At this point each class I take costs me less than $100 for tuition. Not to bad if you ask me. Many of the instructors or ex military and law enforcement who have real world experience in insight that they are able to teach us that may help us if were ever have to defend ourselves. IMO thats a great resource. Would I like to take a class from Clint Smith? Absolutely, and well as Vern Harrision. Hopefully someday I will be able to do that. But until then I will continue to attend front sight and learn new skills each time I go.