TexasCHLforum.com

...OK...the Texas govt website says: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/D ... TN.545.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which agrees with the text that Keith B and gigag04 posted...and I addressed yesterday...which CLEARLY says that under (1) passing,(clearly defined in the text) (3)on a roadway into three marked lanes for traffic or (4)on a roadway restricted to one-way traffic the "UNLESS" following the admonition "shall drive on the right-hand half of the roadway" applies...they are EXCEPTIONS to the "shall" ..... the (b)section talking about those travelling slower than the normal speed does not apply to my posted situation...I am travelling at the speed limit or slightly above, and am not impeding NORMAL traffic by doing so-----normal means normal...not speeders...which are an exception...common sense dictates that...and the idea that there is no speed limit in Texas is....way out there...and totally false...

now...as I said originally, unless there is a sign posted saying to drive in the right lane only...driving in the left lane is legal...the quotes from "the Director", the two erroneous news article quoted, and the Texas Highwayman quotes do not quote the law...are heavily laced by opinions not expressed in the law...and reference the wrong bill number...the correct bill number is 297, not 287, and that bill says nothing to change 545.051...
...it simply tells the Highway Dept to use a different sign...saying left lane for passing instead of slower traffic keep right WHEN they replace damaged or missing signs...or when they place new signs...it doesn't change the law 545.051 in any way...it expresses by legal regulatory signage, which we must obey, of course, that WHERE THE NEW SIGN IS POSTED, we must drive to the right unless passing...not only if we're slower than normal traffic...

...as the at that time the article was written, the trooper interviewed was in authority and given the job to explain the change in signage...I'm taking his comments as true and informed: http://lubbockonline.com/stories/070398/AST-1248.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; if you'll read that text, you'll see that the new law didn't change 545.051, didn't tell the state to change all signs, and the DPS itself said that the new signage had to be posted before anyone was ticketed (fined) for driving in the left lane unless they were driving slower than normal, in which case they would be violating the old sign and get a ticket. He said that until the new sign was posted...the law didn't apply. WHY? because the law 545.051 didn't change...and until the new regulatory sign was posted...545.051 still was the law in power on the highways...
...the articles/blogs that reported the new signage were in error because they wanted the law to say drivers had to drive to the right....and that law said no such thing...it wasn't even directed to drivers...it only affects the driver once it is posted and then he is required to obey it...as my original post stated and I agreed...there are MANY miles of highway today in Texas where there are no signs of either type...many where the old sign is still up...for those areas 545.051 is the law...
...Now...I know, having driven since the 60s, that it is nicer, safer, and Texas polite, and all those good and wise things to go ahead and move right when we can to let a car pass us even if they're speeding...BUT I maintain that they can wait until I've completed passing the slower than the speed limit traffic to my right...nothing in the law says that I have to slow down, hit my brakes, and attempt to find space within the slower traffic to my right , then pull right, just because they want my lane...when THEY can slow down, wait until I've done my passing, and pull in ahead of the slower traffic...like I posted in the beginning...they are no more important than anyone else on the road...
...as to LEOS, past or current...we are not the best source for legal advice...and we do, as you see, disagree...we're just folks with our own attitudes...and noone here has shown me in the written law 545.051 or the HB297 of the 75R session(the new signage bill) where my original statements were in violation of an y law...both are written clearly...the only room for contention is if someone wants to contest the meaning of normal...and society defines normal as law...ie the speed limit...and the Director agreed with that in his closing statement... http://lubbockonline.com/stories/070398/AST-1248.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; nothing gives anyone the right to speed... read his posting and you'll see that it HAD NOT been illegal to drive in the left lane until the new signs that said not to were posted...it has been about 13 years...and 545.051 has not been changed...the exceptions (1), (3), and (4) still have force of law...and the new sign, if posted, has power to remove (3) and (4)...notice how often you see the new signs....


...my objective has not been to insult anyone...or anger anyone...but we can't win an argument by quoting a law and then adding our opinion to the words of it...that's opinion...nor can we say "this means that...or which proves"...when the law...or other "authority source", in this case the Director's letter..or the reference to the signage law...does NOT say what you have said it does...or when what a blogger or Highwayman writes contradicts the law's content and intent...
...HB297 of the 75 R session says: http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/75 ... 00297F.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; does not change the driving law at all...the change for us happens when the sign is posted and we read it...it, where it is used, supercedes the normal(there's that word again) driving law as defined in 545.051....

...now I'm done...and you may still disagree with my post...but the law is the law...and it only says what it says....

...I'm doing research...I plan to post ONE more post on this...but not till later this evening...

a LEO or former LEO knows that the law says what it means and doesn't need anyone to "interpret" it unless it's a court
there's a big difference between a "jailhouse" lawyer and someone reading the law no matter whether it's an LEO, a former LEO, or another former LEO you'd be surprised at how often we disagree vociferously kinda like lawyers

I'm not torqued but I'm not convinced, either, and I am only using the law to support my view what it SAYS not what I want it to say

I guess nothing is served by continuing if my point's not clear now it never will be

Keith B wrote:

speedsix wrote:...the one thing that would change my mind about this is for someone to show me a statute(law) that dictates that I'm wrong to continue driving legally where I have a right to be...and I haven't seen that...feelings and opinions and ideas aside...tell me factually why my opinion is wrong and yours is right...that's winning the argument...

Here is the transportation code. It clearly states you are to drive on the right side of the road UNLESS passing another vehicle or other reason. Period.

§ 545.051. DRIVING ON RIGHT SIDE OF ROADWAY. wrote: (a) An operator on a roadway of sufficient width shall drive on the right
half of the roadway, unless:
(1) the operator is passing another vehicle;
(2) an obstruction necessitates moving the vehicle
left of the center of the roadway and the operator yields the
right-of-way to a vehicle that:
(A) is moving in the proper direction on the
unobstructed portion of the roadway; and
(B) is an immediate hazard;
(3) the operator is on a roadway divided into three
marked lanes for traffic; or
(4) the operator is on a roadway restricted to one-way
traffic.
(b) An operator of a vehicle on a roadway moving more slowly than the normal speed of other vehicles at the time and place under the existing conditions
shall drive in the right-hand lane available for vehicles, or as close as practicable to the
right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, unless the operator is:
(1) passing another vehicle; or
(2) preparing for a left turn at an intersection or
into a private road or driveway.
(c) An operator on a roadway having four or more lanes for
moving vehicles and providing for two-way movement of vehicles may
not drive left of the center line of the roadway except:
(1) as authorized by an official traffic-control
device designating a specified lane to the left side of the center
of the roadway for use by a vehicle not otherwise permitted to use
the lane;
(2) under the conditions described by Subsection
(a)(2); or
(3) in crossing the center line to make a left turn
into or out of an alley, private road, or driveway.

Sections 545.351 and 545.352 deal with Maximum Speed Requirement and Prima Facie Speed Limits respectively, and 545.051 never refers to that section or refers to posted, Prima Facie Speed Limits or Maximum speed.

So, yes, of a person is driving over the speed limit, then they are breaking the law. However, you are breaking the law by driving in the left lane and not moving as far right as you can if you don't meet one of the requirements in 545.051.

Last post on this from me.

...I hope not...I'll argue with you some more...you're "quoting" the law...then interpreting it to mean what you say...
all the highlighting notwithstanding...my situation is LAWFUL under (1), (3), and possibly (4)...depending on which road I'm on... and those are the "other reason"s you spoke of. Period.
"... However, you are breaking the law by driving in the left lane and not moving as far right as you can if you don't meet one of the requirements in 545.051." but I DO...two and maybe 3 of them...so why say that?
...the bad thing about written law is that it only says what it says...not what you want it to say...the good thing about it is that it clearly defines what our behavior should (must) be to be in compliance...
...this law just gives me two, sometimes three, reasons I'm right in doing what I described... (b) regarding slower than NORMAL speed still does not apply...normal is the legal norm...

...the whole point of my refusing to give in to what you folks are saying I should and must do, is that this country is full of people who want to tell, shame, coerce, bully, and lecture us into doing things or not doing things that give up our rights UNDER THE LAW...and we're letting them do it...and we've given up a LOT doing that...what lane we drive in is just one example...we should do what the LAW says...to the letter...but should not let anyone wear us down into giving up our place in line, our rights, just because they want it...that's the big picture here...
...get as torqued as you want to...but PROVE your argument if you want someone to change their ways...with facts...in this case...what does the law say?
...I'm just a fat old jerk on a forum...what if your wife comes home tonigtht with a story that matches my post? You really think she's going to agree with you? Your daughter? that's FAIR, Daddy?...if we won't stand up for our right to live within the law and refuse to be pushed around by those who want to break it at our expense...is that wrong???

G192627 wrote:The fact that he is former LEO and never knew this illustrates the entire problem with our system here.
I'm not singling him out, but it's obvious that very few LEO's have any clue about this particular law, and have been solely focused on the revenue generating speeding ticket. I will agree that it can provide a dual service of finding bad guys on the road through a random traffic stop, so it's better than a speed camera, but STILL, if the actual letter of the law was enforced, the roadways would be much more pleasant and you wouldn't have the road rage created by those blocking the left lane to 'teach a lesson'.

...I was never a TEXAS LEO...so it illustrates nothing...sorry...
...my ticket books lasted me over a year, on average...I caught burglars and couldn't care less about "revenue"...
...teaching a lesson never entered my mind...not giving up my rights to a road bully did, however...I care less what he does until he tries to plow me out of his way...

tallmike wrote:Its possible to be redundant and obtuse. You are not even trying to see the other viewpoints, you just keep stating how yours is correct when an argument is made.

Its OK to say "I don't like speeders, so I am going to attempt to slow them down by driving in the left lane"

That would negate any further arguments these folks can make against you. You aren't doing it because it is legal, you are doing it because you want to. Folks can argue that something is legal or illegal all day, its hard to argue with someone that says "I just wanna"

...I'm not obtuse...just obese...I see your differing viewpoints...but the arguments you offer have either been in error or not pertinent to the situation I described...the interpretations done to try to make the one law apply to what I'm talking about aren't correct...why should I change my opinion when the debate hasn't produced any new and correcting information?

I have NOT said "Its OK to say "I don't like speeders, so I am going to attempt to slow them down by driving in the left lane" ...those are YOUR words...I simply said I won't give up my rightful place so that they can accomplish what they want...totally different...driving within the law and refusing to be bullied out of a lane I have right to be in is not acting against anyone, provoking anyone, or acting as a "rolling roadblock"...I can't comprehend why you think I should just give them what they want...when they're the one breaking the law...and I'm just minding my own business...

...I'm not the one "doing" anything...as Keith B said, it's not my job to MAKE someone do anything...but it's not my responsibility to cave in and yield to their wishes, either...and yield my rightful space just because they want more than the law allows...follow that same line of thinking and you'll be handing over your wallet in an alley just because it's nice...traffic was designed to flow smoothly by all parties on the road following the rules...and you're saying that the right thing to do is to give up my rights to accommodate the ones who want to break the rules...where's the logic in that argument???
...the argument's not progressing very well...I'm done unless someone shows me the law that says I'm wrong...if there is one...then I need to change...till then...no point in continuing...you're just mad because I won't agree...and I'm not changing your minds, either....let it go and move on...

...I'm being redundant to say again...normal is not what several choose to do...normal is what is expected...within norms...guidelines...laws...set by society...in this case...speed limits...posted speed limits...and "at the time and place" does not change what is normal where speeds HIGHER than the posted limit are involved...only LOWER...as in fog, ice, or heavy rain conditions making most cars go slower..in which case, it would apply...the only case I can think of where HIGHER than posted speeds would affect the NORMAL...would be if an officer was directing traffic, ordering the left lane to proceed at high speed for some reason...never saw that happen...but it's possible...
...normal means normal posted speeds or below...speeding well above the speed limit is not normal...


...I don't see any point in continuing to argue the same things...if anyone finds a specific Texas law that I need to be aware of...I'd like to see it...

...the one thing that would change my mind about this is for someone to show me a statute(law) that dictates that I'm wrong to continue driving legally where I have a right to be...and I haven't seen that...feelings and opinions and ideas aside...tell me factually why my opinion is wrong and yours is right...that's winning the argument...

...do you really believe that speeding is normal, even on dry roads in clear weather??? if 5 cars are doing above the limit, let's say...10 mph...does that make them the normal? No, they're 5 speeders, driving ABnormally for conditions...popular opinion doesn't negate posted limits...

...this hasn't been at all about driving SLOWER in the left-hand lane...like your "foggy" example...but driving AT OR SLIGHTLY ABOVE the posted speed...your first paragraph has nothing to do with anything I posted...your second paragraph adds a lot to the discussion that wasn't there...and my answer remains the same...they can wait till I've passed the slower traffic, then pass me...unless they're an emergency vehicle...you're grasping for a way to justify the driver...and he's not justifiable...our standard answer when we found a true emergency was to tell them to slow down and get there...not causing a wreck...and we'd usually offer an escort....
...with the facts as I posted them...there's just no reason to yield to the speed demon's wishes...


...being correct is not always nice...and being nice is not always correct...why do we let people break in line on the highway just because they're in a vehicle??? You wouldn't let someone shove you out of line at the grocery store, would you???

...the word you're contesting is "normal"...and you're saying that because a lot of folks like to speed much over the limit, that that's normal? nope...not buying that argument...there've been too many times I've pulled a speeder out of traffic and his argument was that "everyone else" was speeding just as much or more than he was...that doesn't make it normal...that doesn't make it right....and the judge has told more than one of them that no matter what someone else was doing...he was breaking the law....the point was not missed...there just is no reasonable way to justify the "right" of someone to demand the law-abiding to move out of their way so that they can break the law more flagrantly...that's what's gotten this country into the mess we're in...


...Webster's defines normal as conforming with an acceptable standard or norm....I believe the speed limit that's posted by law would qualify....


...the whole point of this discussion for me is this: no matter what our feelings/opinions are about the situation...whether it would be wiser, nicer, more polite, more peaceable, more servile for me to yield to the person who's trying to commandeer the left hand lane...it is NOT legally required unless so posted(or there is another statute that says so) and to give the driver mentioned his wishes is not worth the trouble for me to hit my brakes and try to blend into slower right-lane traffic, when he could just as well calmly wait till I'd finished passing them, and then do as he pleased about passing...why should I let him bully me into giving up my rightful, legal place on the road, just so that he can do as he pleases???

...srothstein...that is NOT what it says...you posted this: "... An operator of a vehicle on a roadway moving more slowly than the normal speed of other vehicles at the time and place under the existing conditions shall drive in the right-hand lane available for vehicles, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, unless the operator is:..." and then interpreted it wrongly to fit your argument... if you'll read my post, I was moving at or perhaps slightly above the speed limit (normal speed...not more slowly)...so that which you quoted does not apply to my situation...

...tallmike...I didn't say I was driving slowly in the left lane...driving at or slightly above the posted speed is what I said...and your weighing situation, while nice and reasonable...doesn't apply to someone who wants to shovel me into the slower right-hand lane, causing me to have to slow down and blend in order to change lanes...so that they can zoom on by...why should I enable their excessive speed??? Selfish??? maybe...could it get me a ticket someday? I doubt it...unless the lights that are flashing are red and blue...there is no legal requirement unless posted to slow down and re-enter the slower right-lane traffic just so someone else can drive faster in the left lane than I already am...

...a lot of common sense there...but when we're standing in front of the JP...he doesn't put too much stock in it...just reads the LAW and determines if we broke it...and how much it's gonna cost us...that's the bad thing about laws...they don't always make sense...they're not always correct...or efficient...but they're always the law...and there's our choice...either break them, keep them, or work to change them...I've done all three...

...some areas I've seen the sign that the left lane was for passing only...but I'm just testy enough that if that isn't the case, and I'm on an interstate doing the speed limit or a bit over, and someone comes flying up flashing and blowing and trying to make me hit my brakes and blend in with slower traffic in the right lane so that they can fly on by much faster than other traffic...just because they think they're more important than the others on the road....weeeeeeelllllllll...sometimes they get ignored...as far as an underlying blanket law requiring us to keep right unless passing...not aware of it...some folks just think they're too important to wait in line, be inconvenienced by others' presence in life, or take a number...their attitudes don't change mine....

...we used to call 'em "customers"...they got in for free...but hadda pay to get out!!! a lot of 'em lost the voting rights they didn't see any point in using...and the laws didn't change a bit...funny how that works....