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So, the point remains that there are indeed "legal speed limits" for which you can be considering in violation of the law if you exceed. And, you would be fined if caught doing so. On the other hand, Government agencies are apparently exempt from following the laws established specifically FOR THEM TO FOLLOW.

mr.72 wrote:somewhere... I'll have to dig it up.

they are not "suggestions", they are the "reasonable and prudent" speeds, in the absence of other evidence of reasonable and prudent speeds.

maybe look in here http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/do ... 545.352.00

you probably will have little success in fighting it. however there is no real legal "speed limit".

You need to review sections starting at SUBCHAPTER H. SPEED[0] RESTRICTIONS, § 545.351. MAXIMUM SPEED[0] REQUIREMENT
…
(b) Unless a special hazard exists that requires a slower
speed for compliance with Section 545.351(b), the following speeds
are lawful:
(1) 30 miles per hour in an urban district on a street
other than an alley and 15 miles per hour in an alley;
(2) 70 miles per hour in daytime and 65 miles per hour
in nighttime if the vehicle is a passenger car, motorcycle,
passenger car or light truck towing a trailer bearing a vessel, as
defined by Section 31.003, Parks and Wildlife Code, that is less
than 26 feet in length, passenger car or light truck towing a
trailer or semitrailer used primarily to transport a motorcycle, or
passenger car or light truck towing a trailer or semitrailer
designed and used primarily to transport dogs or livestock, on a
highway numbered by this state or the United States outside an urban
district, including a farm-to-market or ranch-to-market road;
(3) 60 miles per hour in daytime and 55 miles per hour
in nighttime if the vehicle is a passenger car or motorcycle on a
highway that is outside an urban district and not a highway numbered
by this state or the United States;
(4) 60 miles per hour outside an urban district if a
speed limit for the vehicle is not otherwise specified by this
section; or
(5) outside an urban district:
(A) 60 miles per hour if the vehicle is a school
bus that has passed a commercial motor vehicle inspection under
Section 548.201 and is on a highway numbered by the United States or
this state, including a farm-to-market road;
(B) 50 miles per hour if the vehicle is a school
bus that:
(i) has not passed a commercial motor
vehicle inspection under Section 548.201; or
(ii) is traveling on a highway not numbered
by the United States or this state; or
(C) 60 miles per hour in daytime and 55 miles per
hour in nighttime if the vehicle is a truck, other than a light
truck, or if the vehicle is a truck tractor, trailer, or
semitrailer, or a vehicle towing a trailer other than a trailer
described by Subdivision (2), semitrailer, another motor vehicle or
towable recreational vehicle.

Text of subsec. (b) as amended by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 663,
§ 2 and Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 1346, § 1
(b) Unless a special hazard exists that requires a slower
speed for compliance with Section 545.351(b), the following speeds
are lawful: (1) 30 miles per hour in an urban district on a street
other than an alley and 15 miles per hour in an alley;
(2) 70 miles per hour in daytime and 65 miles per hour
in nighttime if the vehicle is on a highway numbered by this state
or the United States outside an urban district, including a
farm-to-market or ranch-to-market road, except as provided by
Subdivision (4);
(3) 60 miles per hour in daytime and 55 miles per hour
in nighttime if the vehicle is on a highway that is outside an urban
district and not a highway numbered by this state or the United
States;
(4) outside an urban district:
(A) 60 miles per hour if the vehicle is a school
bus that has passed a commercial motor vehicle inspection under
Section 548.201 and is on a highway numbered by the United States or
this state, including a farm-to-market road;
(B) 50 miles per hour if the vehicle is a school
bus that:
(i) has not passed a commercial motor
vehicle inspection under Section 548.201; or
(ii) is traveling on a highway not numbered
by the United States or this state; or
(C) 60 miles per hour in daytime and 55 miles per
hour in nighttime if:
(i) the vehicle is a truck, other than a
light truck, or if the vehicle is a truck tractor, trailer, or
semitrailer; and
(ii) the vehicle is on a farm-to-market or
ranch-to-market road;
(5) on a beach, 15 miles per hour; or
(6) on a county road adjacent to a public beach, 15
miles per hour, if declared by the commissioners court of the
county.
(c) The speed limits for a bus or other vehicle engaged in
the business of transporting passengers for compensation or hire,
for a commercial vehicle used as a highway post office vehicle for
highway post office service in the transportation of United States
mail, for a light truck, and for a school activity bus are the same
as required for a passenger car at the same time and location.
(d) In this section:
(1) "Interstate highway" means a segment of the
national system of interstate and defense highways that is:
(A) located in this state;
(B) officially designated by the Texas
Transportation Commission; and
(C) approved under Title 23, United States Code.
(2) "Light truck" means a truck with a manufacturer's
rated carrying capacity of not more than 2,000 pounds, including a
pick-up truck, panel delivery truck, and carry-all truck.
(3) "Urban district" means the territory adjacent to
and including a highway, if the territory is improved with
structures that are used for business, industry, or dwelling houses
and are located at intervals of less than 100 feet for a distance of
at least one-quarter mile on either side of the highway.

Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995. Amended
by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 165, § 30.110(a), eff. Sept. 1,
1997; Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1020, § 2, eff. Sept. 1, 1997;
Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 663, § 2, eff. June 18, 1999; Acts
1999, 76th Leg., ch. 739, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1999; Acts 1999,
76th Leg., ch. 1346, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1999.


§ 545.353. AUTHORITY OF TEXAS TRANSPORTATION COMMISSION
TO ALTER SPEED LIMITS. (a) If the Texas Transportation Commission
determines from the results of an engineering and traffic
investigation that a prima facie speed limit in this subchapter is
unreasonable or unsafe on a part of the highway system, the
commission, by order recorded in its minutes, and except as
provided in Subsection (d), may determine and declare:
(1) a reasonable and safe prima facie speed limit; and
(2) another reasonable and safe speed because of wet
or inclement weather.
(b) In determining whether a prima facie speed limit on a
part of the highway system is reasonable and safe, the commission
shall consider the width and condition of the pavement, the usual
traffic at the affected area, and other circumstances.
(c) A prima facie speed limit that is declared by the
commission under this section is effective when the commission
erects signs giving notice of the new limit. A new limit that is
enacted for a highway under this section is effective at all times
or at other times as determined.
(d) Except as provided by Subsection (h), the commission may
not:
(1) modify the rules established by Section
545.351(b);
(2) establish a speed limit of more than 70 miles per
hour; or
(3) increase the speed limit for a vehicle described
by Section 545.352(b)(5).
(e) The commission, in conducting the engineering and
traffic investigation specified by Subsection (a), shall follow the
"Procedure for Establishing Speed Zones" as adopted by the
commission. The commission may revise the procedure to accommodate
technological advancement in traffic operation, the design and
construction of highways and motor vehicles, and the safety of the
motoring public.
(f) The commission's authority to alter speed limits
applies:
(1) to any part of a highway officially designated or
marked by the commission as part of the state highway system; and
(2) both inside and outside the limits of a
municipality, including a home-rule municipality, for a
limited-access or controlled-access highway.
(g) For purposes of this section, "wet or inclement weather"
means a condition of the roadway that makes driving on the roadway
unsafe and hazardous and that is caused by precipitation, including
water, ice, and snow.
(h) Notwithstanding Section 454.352(b), the commission may
establish a speed limit of 75 miles per hour in daytime on a part of
the highway system if:
(1) the commission determines that 75 miles per hour
in daytime is a reasonable and safe speed for that part of the
highway system; and
(2) that part of the highway is located in a county
with a population density of less than 15 persons per square mile.
(h-1) Notwithstanding Section 545.352(b), the commission
may establish a speed limit of 80 miles per hour in daytime on a part
of Interstate Highway 10 or Interstate Highway 20 in Crockett,
Culberson, Hudspeth, Jeff Davis, Kerr, Kimble, Pecos, Reeves,
Sutton, or Ward County if the commission determines that 80 miles
per hour in daytime is a reasonable and safe speed for that part of
the highway.
(i) The speed limits authorized by Subsections (h) and (h-1)
do not apply to:
(1) trucks, other than light trucks and light trucks
pulling a trailer; and
(2) truck tractors, trailers, and semitrailers.
(j) The commission may not determine or declare, or agree to
determine or declare, a prima facie speed limit for environmental
purposes on a part of the highway system.

Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995. Amended
by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 165, § 30.111, eff. Sept. 1, 1997;
Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 1518, § 1, eff. June 15, 2001; Acts
2003, 78th Leg., ch. 1331, § 25, eff. June 20, 2003.

Amended by:
Acts 2005, 79th Leg., Ch. 730, § 1, eff. June 17, 2005.

The statutes state clearly that there are "lawful" and therefore "unlawful" speeds and that such lawful speed limits will be posted. I did not see anywhere in there where it says someone can contest a "speeding" ticket on the grounds that they were traveling at a prudent speed for their skill level and vehicle type.

mr.72 wrote:

snscott wrote: The DPS should not hold ME accountable and ticket me for not following "speed guidelines" - how does that sound?

Actually that is quite legal. You will have to go to court in order to get such a ruling, and it will likely cost you far more than the speeding fine to defend your case.

The speed limit by law is whatever is "reasonable and prudent". The posted speed limit on the sign is considered the "reasonable and prudent" speed limit only in the absence of any other indicator of what speed should be "reasonable and prudent". The question then becomes what is a "reasonable and prudent" speed? Perhaps more, perhaps less, than what is on the sign.

I drive a sports car with excellent tires and brakes. I do not talk on the phone or eat or engage in other distractions while driving. I am very attentive and I have not had a ticket of any kind in over 10 years. Is the "reasonable and prudent" speed for me to drive on a given road at a given time the same as it is for a working mom driving a mini-van with worn-out tires, putting on her makeup and yelling at kids in the back seat while commuting to work? Or is my "reasonable and prudent" speed the same as that of a teenager with one week's worth of driving experience in a $800 car with an inspection sticker that's two years out of date? No way you can make the argument that one speed is reasonable and prudent for everyone.

You just have to be able to present evidence that supports your choice of a "reasonable and prudent" speed, which would convince a jury that the speed posted on the sign was not valid, given that there is other evidence that carries more weight.

of course as everyone says, "I am not a lawyer".

Do you have a reference for those statements about POSTED speed limits being merely suggestions that can be "broken" and then fought in court?

a bunch of very hard working dedicated people in the the CHL group of DPS

I am not saying that they are anything but hard working. I just know from experience that even though you have a dedicated group of employees - if the SYSTEM they are forced to use or follow is inefficient then that just means they have to work even harder than they should have to in order to keep up.

When they fail to keep to the guidelines flags are raised and the press writes stories, special interests start calling their legislators and the situation gets fixed. Its called politics. and it tends to work even if not particularly graceful.

So the true purpose of this "law", which has no defined or enforced penalties, is just so someone can complain to the media or a congressman and the issue might get fixed in a couple of years? Under what "threat of action or penalty" is the agency then forced to "fix" the problem? When I worked for the State Hospital, I can assure you that we had to follow laws regarding the care and treatment of patients in our facility - we could not have gotten away with just blowing them off as "unenforced guidelines for a government agency". People got fired for breaking laws - yes, government employees got fired. I'm sorry if you don't like or disagree with that, but that is the purpose of LAWS - to penalize those who break them. In the corporate world where I am now, if this happened and was not addressed immediately, the CEO would GET FIRED. I've seen it more than once.

In this case, the LAW states a specific time frame during which the agency MUST complete the process. I suggest that the agency needs to do whatever it needs to do and write it off to "complying with State Law".

Actually there are speed guidelines and we are not held accountable for them. See regulatory and advisory signs.

I'm talking about those black and white "speed limit" signs I pass on the way to work. I guarantee you they are enforced and are not "guidelines". I'm only asking for everyone to be held to the same rules and standards. Anyone who breaks the LAW, should pay a penalty. How can you argue against that?

Maybe during the next legislature, if this demand continues and politics works as you say, the DPS can get a bill introduced to increase their time limit - but until that happens, I say they should be upholding the LAW - just like every other law-abiding citizen and agency is expected to do (under penalty of fines or jail and/or firings).

Most laws that are written for government agencies have no penalties

Then what is the point?

It is not a "law" if there are absolutely no repercussions from not obeying it.

But I know I as a taxpayer wouldn't be happy paying off suits because DPS didn't have enough money due to an unprecedented increase in applications. Defendiing these suits would cost resources that could be better spent. processing applications

Well, then I submit that it should not be a "law" if we're not going to enforce it. Can I just ignore some laws because they are inconvenient to me? Absolutely NOT.

I've worked for the State before - I know it often is not a matter of "needing to hire more people", it is a matter of being inefficient with the people and systems you have. For example, when I worked for a State Hospital, there were only 8 of them in the whole state and they had 8 different ways of doing everything they all did in common.

The DPS should not hold ME accountable and ticket me for not following "speed guidelines" - how does that sound?

The reality is that the law sets a guideline

OK, so which is it, a LAW or a guideline? I thought it was LAW - but it is obviously not enforced. I suppose it would take someone suing the DPS for a late response before anyone would be held accountable - and I seriously doubt it even then. So, why even bother to specify a time limit?

To bring this thread more back on topic...

The state is taking a month longer than the 60 days allowed by law to process original applications, the newspaper reported. Renewals are going 80 days past the mandated 45-day period.

Can someone explain what good it is to have a law like this when the DPS can apparently ignore it with no consequences whatsoever? I think it is great more people are getting their CHL's, but my point here is what is the value of a law like this and why isn't anyone held responsible for the law being broken and not only that, but the DPS openly admits they are doing it?

What is the penalty for them missing the "mandated" time period?